How many remember the discussions 25 years ago about the secred scrolls of Isshinryu? Often the “Secret Scrolls” were referemced with little idea what theywere. Then it becamc clear they referenced the Shimabuku Kumite which was unevenly taught on Okinawa, as they were among the last studies taught and many Marines moved on before they were taught.
Andy Sloane You mean Tatsuo's Kumite?
Victor Donald Smith I was in Issshinryu 30
years when I discoved the internet. The TS kumite was not our tradition.
I had
never heard of the scrolls before, as I lived for the most part away from
others in Issinryu it never came up. There was a great deal of speculation
about what they were. But the TS kumite was never mentioned. Later it came up,
I first became aware of it through Sherman Harrill.
Andy Sloane Armstrong Sensei was the only one, to my knowledge,
th
at called them
Secret Scrolls. The Kumite techniques were written on the scrolls.
Andy Sloane It's interesting that Sensei Lewis didn't learn
them while in Okinawa but Sensei Ed Johnson did.
J.R. Aiello Interesting in what way? It would seem to make
sense that Master Shimabuku would trust some people over others. If they really
were secret, not everyone know them.
Andy Sloane They
weren't really secret. They were listed on the chart on the wall as the last
thing to learn.
J.R. Aiello Ahhh...
Were Lewis and Johnson there at the same time? Maybe they went up later?
Andy Sloane Some
guys just didn't have long enough on the island to learn them. Some started
later in their tour and just didn't have enough time left to learn them.
Andy Sloane Sensei
Lewis started in about August 1959 and left in October 1960. Sensei Johnson
started in December 1959 and left in February 1961.
Andy Sloane Sensei Harrill started in about the spring of 1959
and left in May 1960.
Victor Donald Smith Some of th techniques Lewis Sensei taught are the
same. But I know his unit did TDY to Japan for a while. When Charles Murray t
aimed in Agena in 1972 they were not being done by the Okinawans while he was
there. A different paradigm was used by Lewis Sensei.
Victor Donald Smith The
term Secret Scrolls was being used on the Internet by those who discussed
Isshinryu.
Victor Donald Smith There are many diffirent paradigm to teaching
Isshinryu, Different does not mean less effective. I was never taught but to
train hard, Isshinryu was not an experience to find new ways. Nothing wrong,
but at the same time, not necessarily right either.
Dan Aaron Secret? So, do you have them to share? I would like
to take a look, or at least know what they are in english, please. Thank you.
Andy Sloane Sensei
Armstrong says on p. 62 of his book that he got to begin learning Tatsuo
Sensei's Kumite (self-defense techniques) on his last day on Okinawa. They were
never secret. They were simply the last items in Tatsuo Sensei's curriculum.
They were written on a scroll, apparently. Sensei Advincula has said that he
wrote them down in English in a way that he could understand them when he
learned them in 1959. He said that he and the late Rodney Kiaha used to do them
for the demonstrations.
Andy Sloane This photo
shows the order of the Isshin-ryu curriculum in the Agena dojo c. 1958-c. 1961.
SAYA is Kyan no Sai. Kyan no Sai was eventually supplanted by Kusanku Sai by
about 1960 and was no longer taught as a separate kata.
BOO is Tokumine no Kun. (The double O is how the Okinawans sometimes elongate
the O sound when writing words in English. It is not pronounced like what we
say a ghost might say.)
As you can see, Kumite (aka the "Secret Scroll(s)") is last.
Victor Donald Smith Dan,
I haven't looked at those notes for some time, all I can locate at this time is
the attacks being countered.
01 How
to counter basic grabs
02 How to counter punching attacks
03 Striking the back of an attacking fist
04 Special blocking techniques
05 How to grab and control the attacker
06 How to counter the Gi Grab
07 How to counter the Full Nelson
08 How to counter the Bear Hug
09 How to counter the Devil’s handshake
10 How to counter chokes (including from the mount position)
11 How to counter a straight stab
12 How to counter an ice pick stab
13 How to counter a straight stab with both hands up
14 How to counter a straight stab leaning forward
15 How to counter double knife stabs
In
their way similar to the approach Patrick McCarthy much later adopted breaking
defensive techniques into 36 sorts of attacks. If you follow AJ Advincula he
often shares them on his FB site.
Andy Sloane Dan Aaron, this is the list of the 45 Kumite techniques that
Tatsuo Sensei taught (as written by Sensei Advincula):
1(a) Left hand hold right wrist.
(b) Two hands hold one wrist.
(c) Left hand hold right hand, from
side position.
(d) Right hand hold right wrist.
(e) Right hand hold right wrist from
top.
2(a) Outside block, punch inside.
(b) Inside block, punch side.
(c) Step forward punch.
(d) Shoulder block.
(e) Grab arm, elbow.
3(a) Punch back of hand top.
(b) Punch back of hand side.
(c) Punch back of hand knuckle.
4(a) Knuckle block for kick, counter kick.
(b) Cross arm block.
(c) Left hand push right leg inside
counter kick.
(d) Knee block, kick.
(e) Grab leg, grab Adam's apple, trip
punch.
5(a) Hold arm, use against punch.
(b) Left kick.
(c) Right kick.
(d) Twist.
6(a) One hand hold gi, grab, twist, kick.
(b) Two hand hold gi, push kick.
(c) Trip two feet kick.
(d) Trip, choke hold, kick face.
7(a) Full Nelson, karate cut groin.
(b) Full Nelson, grab leg, heel kick.
(c) Full Nelson, grab both legs, karate
cut groin.
(d) Back neck breaker and choke hold,
cut groin.
8(a) Bear hug waist, hands free, grab one finger break, or hit back of hand
(b) Bear hug around arms and waist,
grab groin.
(c) Head lock, grab groin and one
shoulder break.
(d) Head lock, knuckle in side.
(e) Head lock, jerk shoulders up, kick
legs out in front.
9(a) Devil's handshake, grab your fist, pull, kick.
(b) Double Devil's handshake, twist
over, elbow kick.
10(a) Two hand straight choke, break, grab Adam's apple.
(b) Cross arm choke, one arm and
shoulder up between his arms and grab Adam's apple.
(c) Smother hold, knuckles in side.
11. Straight stab, grab hand and wrist, twist, kick, trip, kick.
12. Ice pick stab, block across, kick.
13. Straight stab, both hands up, karate cut block, kick.
14. Straight stab leaning forward, grab hands with both of yours, pull, knee
elbow.
15. Two knife straight stab, squat kick.
Okinawa Budo Kai Ohhh yes. Propagated by Sensei Steve Armstrong.
Right up there with his announcement. Of his promotion to Judan from an an
envelope he opened many years after leaving Okinawa wink emoticon
Andy Sloane I thought he
said that Tatsuo Sensei gave him the rank certificate in 1966 to claim at a
later time.
Okinawa Budo Kai He
may have claimed that. I was at the tournament in the 80's when he unveiled it.
It was like the old Johnny Carson skit with Karnack. The envelope was stored in
a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnles porch for 20 years. This was the date it
was to be opened, then....OMG!...it was a Judan certif signed & sealed my
Shimabuku Tatsuo himself. Everyone was ecstatic! (except for a few of us who
live in reality). Turns out Steve Armstrong was the Secretary for the AOKA on
Okinawa. He had Tatsuo Sensei hanko & sign several blank rank certificates.
After Tatsuo Sensei passed , gee...who may have had them. The certificate facts
I was told by a 1st Gen student who was given 1st Dan thru 5th certifs by these
folks all signed & sealed by Tatsuo Shimabuku (after his death). I guess
that led the way for all the premature high rank in Isshinryu.
Andy Sloane Originally,
Sensei Mitchum was the President, Sensei Armstrong was the Vice President, and
Sensei Frank Van Lenten was the Secretary. That organizational structure
changed in October and November 1960 when all three of these men left Okinawa.
Only Sensei Mitchum returned to Okinawa (May 1961).
Tom Fearfield Gentlemen..i have been tasked this year by my
sensei to learn all i can with accuracy the history of isshinryu..this is
therefore something i take quite seriously..as i read the dialog between you it
seems that you are not convinced that sensei mitchum...See
More
John Kerker As usual the need to embellish the truth and make
things more than they ever needed to be are more prevalent in Isshinryu than
what should count.....no one that served only one 11 month tour learned all the
kumite.... There was nothing secret....they are simple self defense
techniques.... I teach them in the kids class....training in the Dojo with Mr
Harrill I would say we did a little more than half of them....he didn't name
them as Kumite techniques, but simply they were Shimabuku Tatsuo's application
from kata...in 1998 Mr Harrill went to California to train with Tokumura Kensho
Sensei and A.J. Advincvula Sensei......during the week he was out there part of
what they did was go through the Tatsuo Kumite...... He came back to the Dojo
very excited and went through them all with myself and John Peterson. He told
us that we already practiced over half of the, but now the rest would be
added....they are an important part of Isshinryu and are easy to learn.
Andy Sloane I never questioned the validity of Sensei Mitchum's
promotion. We were discussing Sensei Armstrong's rank.
John Kerker I thought we were talking about the Tatsuo Kumite,
as usual the discussion devolves to rank and how people were promoted
Andy Sloane That too, Sensei John Kerker.
John Kerker Guys, we need to let go of all that
Andy Sloane How
and when our pioneers got their ranks is all a part of our history, warts and
all. We should be able to have discussion about it at this late a date without
it devolving to insults and sore feelings. I know I'm able to. Surely there are
others who can as well.
John Kerker It's the least important part of our history.
Andy Sloane To some, maybe. But not discussing it helps no one
understand why we are where we are today.
John Kerker We are were we are because some people took
advantage of Shimabuku Tatsuo and embellished the truth...that has no bearing
on the training or Isshinryu.
Andy Sloane That is one way of looking at it.
John Kerker That's the simple truth Andy it's undeniable and
sad but the truth, so best to train and forget the BS. How people inflated and
embellished rank has nothing to do with what Shimabuku Tatsuo taught....
Andy Sloane Yes, I wonder if anyone has a picture of that rank
certificate. He also claimed to have had two tours on Okinawa and that he was a
black belt in two styles of karate before training in Isshinryu; his service
record proves otherwise.
Dan Aaron Thank you everyone for that useful information. It
is a big help!
Andy Sloane You're welcome, Dan Aaron. As you can see, the "Secret Scrolls",
were not really secret.
Keith Taylor All this talk
of secret or sacred scrolls makes me skeptical. There are no
"secrets" are some things hidden and obfuscated in the forms ? Sure,
that is an asian thing, but when it comes down to it, a hard natural fighter
with minimal training can be a...See More
Tom Fearfield Monkey takes the peach may work? Lol
Victor Donald Smith When the discussions on
Isshinryu began in the internet it was a far different time. Many well
intentioned people attempted to understand what the idea of the “Secret
Scrolls” meant. There were those who trained in the self defense techniques.
But they were focused on training those who could press the flesh and not gain
short cuts. There was also a great deal of information hording to. It was not
apparent in those discussions where the term originated.
This was before YouTube was available, and the
records on Video Tape were often not available to many.
Interestingly, one of the available records was the 2
Self Defense video tapes of Angi Uezu Self Defense. They have never made it to
youtube but I made personal notes for myself. I recently shared them on my blog
at
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/.../uzeu-angi...
One YouTape video of interest found is Knife self defense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgmKZQPi5_E
I have never made the time to compare them, but many of the moves are similar.
Isshin - Concentration the Art: Uezu Angi
Self Defense Techniques Panther Video
isshin-concentration.blogspot.com|By
Victor Smith
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2016/02/uzeu-angi-self-defense-techniques.html
Victor Donald Smith As for secrets there
certainly are those. Anything I know and you don't is a secret. Some might be
simply that I don't trust some people to have them, some might be that more
training is required before you can realisticly execite this properly. That is
something many do not appreciate. IMO much bunkai should not be taught as
openly because the individuals are not properly prepared to make it work. Just
because someone wants something, is no reason that it should be shared. The
issue is more complex than simple quotes.
Keith Taylor That is
certainly true , but I think more than a bit of it is hyped. There are no
guarantees in true combat. The Marines generally win in combat because of
superior training,skills and ethos, but many Marines have died as well. Even
the best trained and most skilled special operators get killed. All the
opponent has to do is get lucky with the skills, as meager as they might be,
they have on hand. The battlefield is not a dojo or kumite. As for the few real
world experiences I have had, it was basics that got me through, not any
special technique, however , I did have knowledge through training of simple
things and how to apply them properly, perhaps that is what we really mean by
"secrets".
Dan Aaron I understand your point...kinda like if you are not
mature enough for the material covered , then you can not execute it properly,
and your technique could look terrible. I also a firm believer that the
techniques that where described in another language has something to do with it
as well. When you do not know the full meaning of the words and their context,
then you do not fully understand how to apply the techniques.
John Kerker The technique is trained through kihon and kata
which is a universal language. If taught properly little explanation is need
https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2022/07/tatsuos-kumite-by-master-john.html
https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2021/03/isshinryus-secret-scrolls.html
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