Ken Aligeier
Let me explain, the first Okinawan
weapon kata that I learned were from the Penn State Unv. Karate club ( a Isshin
Ryu group) .I learned the 3 bo kata Tokumine no Kon, Urasoe no Kon anf Shishi
no Kon no Dai. And the 2 Sai kata ,
Chatanyara no Sai and Kusanku no Sai
Four year ago I started to learn Ryukyu Kobujutsu/Ko-buki kata from Mr Glenard
Grabow.Some of you may remember Mr Grabow's articles from the old "
Bugeisha " and " Budo Dojo " magazines.I would like to the state
the Mr Grabow began his training in Okinawa in 1961 and his teachers were
Shinjo Masanobu,Kani Katsuyoshi,Toguchi Seikichi,Kiyuna Choyu.
It became quite apparent that, what Mr Grabow teaches
in the context of Okinawan weapon kata is Different from some other indivduals
and groups in America.What Mr Grabow teaches (and his research has shown) is
the older version of the Bo Sai and Tonfa Kata.I would like to state that Mr Grabow is vary adamant about the fact that these kata
should not be altered in any maner from how he learned them in Okinawa.
For one reason is that these older version of the
weapon kata are time capsule into the past and a understanding how these
indivdual fought, and if these kata are modified, their is a lost of historicsl
knowledge of the past.
For example the kata Tokumine no Kon
found in Isshin Ryu, is in fact the kata Yonegawa no Kon.I mean no disrespect,
but the truth is that Tatsu Shimabuku ( founder of Isshin Ryu ) took the kata
Yonegawa no Kon simplified it and renamed Tokumine no Kon.What I mean by '
simplified' is that the diffcult waza and combative scenarios are removed
within the kata.Thus making the kata easier to preform and learn.This was also
done to the kata Urasoe no Kon and Chatanyara no Sai.I can not comment on
Shishi no Kon because I have never learn a older version of that kata.
This situation of simplifing classical weapon kata, I have noticed also has
occurred within the Inoue & Sakagami schools in Japan and the The Matayoshi
Kobudo( Okinawa) where their Bo kata also have are simpilfied.In Motokatsu
Inoue Book " Bo,Sai ,Tonfa and Nunchaku
" the two Bo kata which are demostrated Shuji and Sakugawa are lacking in
the more diffcult waza found in the older version of thus stated kata , which
were taught to me by Mr Grabow.I am not saying that the indivdaul skill within
these schools is poor or substanard, only that the classical Bo and Sai kata
have been simplified( from the older version ) over the years by different
teachers, why I do not have a answer for that.
Ken,
I can not disagree with your points about the general trend of simplifying
kobudo kata, but I have a couple problems with your post.
1. Shimabuku is supposed to have learned Tokumine no Kun from Chotoku Kyan.
This is well known to be the only Bo kata that Kyan taught. I have not seen the
version practiced by the Seibukan or other groups that follow the Kyan/ Zenryo
Shimabuku teachings, so I can't say for sure if the Isshin Ryu version is
Kyan's Tokumine no Kun.
2. However, Yonegawa no Kun originated in Yamanni
Chinen Ryu. It is an extremely complex and difficult kata. Have you ever seen
this kata demonstrated by any of the senior members of Yamanni Ryu? If you ever
do, you will not believe that Isshin Ryu's Tokumine no Kun has anything to do
with Yonegawa no Kun.
Shinken Taira (Shimabuku's primary Kobudo teacher) endeavored to
preserve as much of Okinawa's weapon traditions as possible. By sheer
necessity, many of the kata that he preserved had to be simplified. At the very
least, kata that came from different traditions(with their own distinct and
unique mechanics) had to made to be performed with the same mechanics. This is
why Taira's kata from sources like Yamanni Chinen Ryu (Shushi, Shirotaru,
Yonegawa) bear only the most superficial resemblance to those still taught in
Yamanni Ryu.
BTW, I have seen both Isshin Ryu's and Taira Shinken's
versions of Catanyara no Sai, and they are essentially the same. Also, I was
under the impression that Taira was responsible for preserving this kata, and
that most, if not all, groups doing this kata, learned it from him or one of
his students. So, if Mr Grabow has a fifferent source from which he learned
this kata, I would be interested to know what it is. Respectfully, can you
share this with us?
Regards,
Brian Dunham
Not sure if this post really belongs here or the buy
& sell section, but I thought I'd take a crack at it anyway as it should be
of interest to kobudoka with a passion for sai and love of history.
I received a remarkable pair of old iron sai directly from the late kobudo
master, Akamine Eisuke, in Okinawa a couple of years before he passed away as a
gift for translating his teacher's (Taira Shinken) 1964 publication,
"Kobudo Taikan." I am now considering selling them and am fielding
offers. According to the late master they were used by both Yabiku Moden and
Master Taira.
Interested parties can see the sai located on this page http://www.society.webcentral.com.a...ai__shi_shi.htm
and or on this page http://www.society.webcentral.com.a...o_akamine_2.htm
Incidentally, I also have Inoue Motokatsu's three volume set (in Japanese)
entitled, "Ryukyu Kobujutsu," in which there appears many sai kata:
i.e. Kojo, Ugushiku, Hantaguwa, Yakaa, Tawata, Tsukenshitahaku, Hama Higa,
Chatan Yara, etc. My copies are also personally autographed by the late master,
who I once studied under. I would also field offers for those parties seriously
interested in purchasing them.
Please make offers c/o bujin @ bigpond.com
Dear Doug, if you reason that this post is not appropriate for this thread, let
me know and I'll remove it ASAP.
Yoroshiku Patrick McCarthy
Taira
showed Hama Higa no Sai in his "Ryukyu Kobudo Taikan" of 1964. Taira
received Menyo from Yabiku in "Ryukyu Bojutsu and Saijutsu".
The exact text of it is:
Shihan Menjō
(Place:) Ikaho Onsen
(to Person:) Taira Shinken
The person given on the right (Taira Shinken) studied Ryūkyū Bōjutsu and
Saijutsu for long years.
Therefore (he recieves)
this license of the title of Shihan
15th of August, 1933
(Society:) Ryūkyū Kobujutsu Kenkyūkai
President Yabiku Mōden
(see the text of the Menyo in the new revised and expanded edition of that
book, supervised by Inoue Kisho.)
There is also the story of Hama Higa Pechin in the new edition, taken from the
handwritten notes made by Taira. According to this, the kata traces back to one
Hama Higa Pechin, who went to Satsuma and later to Edo in 1682 as part of the
congratulatory party for Shôgun Tsunayoshi (Tokugawa).
There he is said to have "performed a speciality of Ryūkyū in front of
Shōgun Tsunayoshi: Tōde and Saijutsu Kata. This form of demonstration the name
Sanchi-ryū has been bestowed upon by King Shō Tei, which afterwards was passed
on as the Hama Higa no Sai Kata."
[Note: Sanchi-ryū 算知流 was the old traditional way of playing Go, stemming from
the Yasui family 安井家, which had been described as "quarrel
principle". Chosing this name showed some kind of submission - at that
time maybe better called "respect" - for the Japanese superiority.
This is only to be understood by knowing that at that time the principle of
Fuseki 布石 (the strategical arrangement of the Go-stones), had been founded and
the old Sanchi-ry was substituted by the Dōsaku-ryū 道策流, which was the first to
use Fuseki.]
The details of the account given leave no doubt that the Taira's informations
where gathered with the help of learned historians (maybe Higaonna Kanjun, who
also wrote about martial arts of Ryukyu elsewhere).
Everybody may agree that this was a quite early event in terms of Ryukyu
martial arts.
Timewarp:
Among the directors of Taira's association where:
Higa Yūchoku.Akamine Eisuke.and five other Okinawans.
Of course also mainland Japanese were among the directors, like Sakagami
Ryusho, Inoue Motokatsu, Hayashi Teruo and many others.
Among the consulting members where (only Okinawan members listed here):
Chibana Chōshin
Higa Seikō
Soken Hōhan
Chinen Masami
Nagamine Shōshin
Yagi Meitoku
Uechi Kanei
Tamaki Juei
Miyazato Ei'ichi
Nakazato Shūgorō
Fukuchi Seikō
Shimabukuro Tatsuo
Toguchi Seikichi
Uehara Saburō
Shimabukuro Eizō
Nakamura Shigeru
Miyahira Katsuya
Kinjō Hiroshi
So I ask myself, who where the people who handed down the original form, the
secret techniques, the real martial art, if not these people? And if there was
someone, where did he/she learn? From Nagamine Shôshin (who you find on the
above list)? Or from Masami Chinen (who you find on the above list)? Or from
whom?
I saw a video (a dantai enbu) of Chatan Yara no Sai which today looks exactly
the same as about in the 1960s (there are not much earlier moving picture
sources). I also saw Sai and Bojutsu kata from a person, whose entry in the
Bugei Ryûha Daijiten of 1978 is "Kyan-ryū (Saijutsu): Okinawa". The
Saijutsu of this person was also "upgraded", in other terms, it was
changed. There even was the attempt to let this Saijutsu run under a different
name, only to authenticate some different person, who retroactively needs to be
made some more important in history (because otherwise, the whole lineage would
begin to disintegrate).
There is one thing I agree with: there are people who made up new things with
the help of the old kata. But the kata and techniques have not been simplified,
but rather have been "upgraded" to the popular customers wants...
It is simply other way around than suggested. Stop betraying those who worked
hard and really achieved something, but are dead now. At least this is not the
original Okinawan form (I read something about this in a book 
).
__________________
Best regards
Andreas Quast
I am partially presenting a letter written by my
teacher (Minowa Katsuhiko) to myself. Part of the letter dealt with Yamani-ryu
and a video I had sent Minowa sensei containing Shushi no kon as performed by
Mr. Oshiro. Given the current discussion on Taira and Yamani-ryu, I believe it
is relevant.
This section of the letter is NOT presented as an assessment of Mr. Oshiro's'
skills, but for the insights Minowa sensei provided in the commentary on his
training experience.
Mario McKenna
Letter Begins...
Shushi no kon [Oshiro Toshihiro]
Mr. Oshiro's Shushi no kon is considerably different to what is practiced in
the Ryukyu Kobudo Shinko Kai so I can't really comment on whether it is good or
bad. A long time ago, we (Akamine, Nakamoto, myself, ect.) all learned the same
kobudo kata from Taira Sensei. And although our kata may have differed, the
differences were quite small.
However, a long time ago, Taira Sensei stated to us that many of his bo kata
came from Yamani-ryu. Taira Sensei had four top students of Yamane-ryu who
acted as advisers for his Ryukyu Hozon Shinko Kai I think and they would
occasionally come to his home and their names were on the name board. Their
kata and Taira Sensei's were essentially the same. I'll say it again, it could
have been either Taira sensei taught us incorrectly or his Yamane-ryu juniors
learned incorrectly. But at that time I believed in what I was being taught by
Taira Sensei, even to this day and practice it to the best of my ability.
Letter Ends...
__________________
Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC
Kowakai Karatedo
Shaz, I went to www.oshirodojo.com
and, as this thread is about Sai, I read the article "The Stories and
Practice of the Okinawan Sai".
Quote:
|
The Sai in Modern
Martial Arts Practice |
Rhetoricall excellent, this raises some questions. Why is the term traditional
set between quotation marks??? Is there any doubt among experts that there were
and are traditional Sai kata?
I think the story of the Sai article must lead a lowbrow reader to the notion
that there are no traditional kata and that a great part of the Okinawan
inhabitants used Sai for self defense, i.e. anybody could have used the Sai.
Very promising preliminary, however highly assumptive to say the least.
Let me come to that:
Chinen (Yamanni) family was of Chikudun Pechin rank:
Chinen Ueon Kana (1797-1881) seems to be first in his family to have been
promoted to the rank of Chikudun Pechin, those people of the Ryūkyū class
system who originally belonged to the farmers class and became
"Samurai" by meritorious deeds or contributions, even though they did
not originally had the genealogical table necessary for the "Bushi"
ranks (remember neither the term Bushi nor Samurai in connection with Okinawan
do equal the Japanese Bushi or Samurai. It is just misleading comparison.
Chikudun Pechin were engaged in general administrative work as a lower class
"samurai".
This person is also known by the name Chinen Chiku Nobori No Shiun Jōshina;
this means “Chinen who took up a high position as a public servant.”
He is also known as Chinen Ueon Kana, which principally means the same, i.e
“Chinen who achieved office.”
As far as I know, the Chikudun people were the lowest of what we now call
"rank" in Ryukyu kingdoms administration. The traditional Sai Kata,
which have been suggested to be not traditional (the result of such suggestions
we may have seen in this thread) were, however, invented by higher ranking
people, and this I assure without seeing any need for giving you the exact
bibliographic reference. It seems very likely that the possession of Sai were
limited to people of a certain rank upwards.
Again the list of BRD (informations as of 1978, thus not watered down very
much). In brackets the rank and some info on the person associated with the
Kata, which I have researched:
- Chikin Shitahaku no Sai (Court name: Shitahaku Oyakata. Rank: Oyakata. Real
name: Saitaku. He compiled the Chuzan Seifu from 1697 to 1701; was the father
of the famous Saion.)
- Hama Higa no Sai (Hama Higa Pechin. Real name: unknown. Went to Edo in 1682
and performed Tode and Saijutsu as a cultural speciality of Ryukyu [Satsuma
liked to present Ryukyu persons a s somewhat exotic])
- Chatan Yara no Sai (Said to have been student of Kusanku, the military
officer mentioned in Oshima Hikki)
- Yakaa no Sai (the complete name of the Kata is Hama Udun Yakaa no Sai. Hama
means "beach", Udun means "palace" or "control
palace", Yaka is a place on Okinawa. According to Nakamoto Masahiro,
"Yakaa techniques" were evidently employed by young Ōji (princes) in
their function as attendants to the king. Thus, these are the Sai-tecniques of
the princes from or performed at "Yaka Beach Palace". The Udun were
the extended residences, in which Ōji (princes) or Anji ("feudal
lord") lived.)
- Hantagwa Kuragwa no Sai (Hantagwa was allegedly born in Urasoe castle town
and was one of the persons who are said to have trained in Jigen Ryū Bō Odori)
- Kojō no Sai (Kojo family: Ranks: Oyakata, Pechin. The Kogusuku family of
Kumemura in the Naha area is today most commonly known as the Kojō. They were
undoubtedly one of Ryūkyūs premier martial arts families, indicated by them
being the Shuri castle guards in hereditary succession. The Kogusuku Denka, or
Kogusuku family tradition, led to todays Kojō Ryū. Kogusuku Oyakata was a high
ranked Ryūkyū official and sent to China in 1665 by his father and is supposed
to have studied martial arts at the court of the Chinese emperor. The emperor
is said to have granted Kojō Oyakata permission to teach martial arts officially.
After returning to Okinawa, it is said that Kogusuku Oyakata taught Kumiuchi-hō
or “fighting methods” similar to Kempō only to his family. The Kogusuku martial
art had been first formalized by Kogusuku Pechin. The second generation of the
Ryū was presented by one Kogusuku Seishoei (1816-1906), who was an expert in
weapons.)
- Arakaki-ryu no Sai (Well, Arakaki Seishō (1849-1920), described as a king’s
Bushi who seems to have hailed from Sesoko island where his father had been
posted by the Shuri government to administer as the chief magistrate for the
area. Everybody knows the story of the martial arts program of 1867, when
Aragaki and others performed Ryukyu Martial Arts at the royal guest house as an
entertainment honoring the Chinese Sappōshi. Arakaki in 1870 was send to China
as a translator (Tsuuji Pechin) by the Ryūkyū government. Arakaki was also
sought out by others, like Mabuni Kenwa, Chitose Gōchoku, Toyama and Funakoshi
and was a notable Bō and Sai expert.)
- Tawada no Sai (Tawada Shinboku (1814-1884))
The knowledge that there have been worn three Sai is known by the simple fact
that there is the above named Kata Kojo no Sai. So, to end this, I have no
doubt that there are traditional Sai kata. One may use these Kata as what they
where maybe meant to be: as a template to study. One may uses these to further
develop the technique, and fill some possible technical gaps. Good! One may
keep the template alive in its "original form" as a subject of study
for generations to come.
After all it is not really comprehensible why there is spread word that there
is no such thing as traditional Sai kata and that they all have been only
invented more recently. The construction of the assumptions is based on
"they fought with Sai and when they fought with it it couldn't have been
looking like... well, the traditional Kata". It may be true that the
Ryukyu nobles in times of emergency would use other tactics than shown Omote in
the Kata, but after all it is kata. These templates have been used again and
again to study the martial arts by many different people.
The whole article on Sai to me just looks like rhetorical prank in which
"other modern Okinawan styles" are degraded as
"unsophisticated" only as a means of authenticating actions taken to
promote Yamanni as an overall Kobudo.
You may think about of just point out your strong point without invalid
comparisons to (undisclosed) styles, which maybe just have completely different
goals.
There is no tradtional Sai kata in Yamanni-ryu (apart from what seems to be
based in Kyan Shin'ei's Saijutsu). After all I can't prevent a strong feeling
that many things in Yamanni-ryu seems to have been more recent developments.
Again, that's absolutely ok with me, and the techniques look great. However, I
have some difficulty with the rhetorical part of that all. So to me the style
itself has a history of 20 years, starting from 1985 with founding of the
Ryukyu Bujutsu Kenkyu Doyukai. So, in this, it isn't even important that other
Okinawan styles "differ from Yamanni-Ryu in the fundamentals of their
movement", because Yamanni-Ryu isn't the "original style",
hasn't the "original Kata" and hasn't the "original movements
and body mechanics" of Mr. Chinan Sanda, at least as far my humble opinion
is concerned. Also to note: There never seemed to be the traditional
(secretive) teaching only to the eldest son in Yamanni lineage.
The Okinawa Dojo list as prepared by the Okinawa Orefectural Board of Education
as of 2003, there are about 430 dojo with adress, styles etc. It has two entries
which include the name "Yamani", both belonging to an association
called "Okinawa Shōtō-ryū Karate-dō Kyōkai"; no "Ryukyu Bujutsu
Kenkyu Doyukai" there. I find it interesting that one of those uses the
term "Yamani Kishaba-ryū Bōjutsu" for his style, which I may add
seems absolutely fitting and correct to me, in terms of naming a tradition
according to Bugei customs. It shows the root (Yamani) and it shows the further
development (Kishaba). So I keep it with this.
1:
Dōjō: Tamagusuku or Tamshiro Karate
Place: Naha-shi Matsuyama
Association: Okinawa Shōtō-ryū Karate-dō Kyōkai
Martial Arts: Karate-dō, Kobudō
Training: Monday and Friday: Youths 19:15-20:30. Adults 21:00-22:30. Wednesday:
Yamane Kishaba-ryū Bōjutsu 21:00-22:30
2.
Dōjō: Shuri-te ?? Karate Dōjō (Yamane Chinen-ryū Bōjutsu)
Association: Okinawa Shōtō-ryū Karate-dō Kyōkai
Place: Naha-shi Shuri Akata-chō
Martial Arts: Karate-dō, Kobudō (Bōjutsu)
Training: Monday and Wednesday: 19:00-20:30. 20:45-22:30. Saturday:
10:30-12:30.
The explicit Kobudo associations named are the following:
Ryūkyū Kobudō Seidōkai
Ryūkyū Kobudō Ryūkonkan
Ryūkyū Kobudō Yōryū (Eiryū
kai
Kingai-ryū Tōde Matayoshi Kobudō
Ryūkyū Kobudō Hozon Shinkōkai
Okinawa Kobudō Dōshi Renseikai
Okinawa Dentō Kobudō Hozonkai
Ufuchiku-den Ryūkyū Kobujutsu Hozonkai
Ryūkyū Kobudō Hozonkai
Ryūkyū Kobudō Tesshinkan Kyōkai
Ryūkyū Dentō Kobujutsu Hozon Budō Kyōkai
Under "others" are some more like:
Motobu Udun-dî Kobujutsu Kyōkai
Okinawa Ryūei-ryū Karate Kobudō Ryūfūkai
If there are any further doubts of the existence of traditional Sai kata (net
recently invented "traditinoal" Sai kata), I would recommend
consulting one of these.
One more that looks like if an overwork is nessecary:
Soeishi (1752-1825) is placed as a student of Chinen Kana (1797-1881) see above
in this post).
According to this, Chinen Kana would have been the teacher of a 45 years older
Soeishi. When Chinen became a Bo-master at, hypothetically, the age of 20
(which is young, I guess), Soeishi would have been 65! That would have been
1817. Soeishi would have had the opportunity to study under Chinen for 8 years,
until Soeishi's death in 1825, aged seventy-three. Can anybody believe this was
possible?
Also, Soeishi is said to have been of Udun rank, which is similar to a governor
(Udun are large residences where princes and Anji chieftains lived). He is also
called Soeishi Dunchi, indicating a similar higher rank. Whatever it may really
have been, it is accepted, that he was a man of high rank. Soeishi is said to
have lived in the Onna village in the Shuri region and to has been the
instructor of the royal lifeguard, and also that he had been held in high
regard by the Satsuma. Inoue described Soeishi as follows:
Quote:
|
Daimyō from Shuri. He was a great Bōjutsu master.
Chōun, Shūshi and Soeishi no Kun are his product. |
So maybe there is a little mistake in
the lineage, and in fact Chinen was a student of Soeishi?
The lineage also present Kanagusuku Ufuchiku Sanda (1841-1926) as a student of
Chinen Kana (this is the only lineage I could find stating this). Kanagusuku
became the security commander of the final Shō Dynasty of king Shō Tai in 1879
(the year of the abolition of the Ryukyu-han and the establishment of the
Okinawa-ken was finally pushed through). He created techniques with twenty-five
ancient weapons, thus creating his Ufuchiku-den or the Ufuchiku tradition. The
BRD gives no teacher of Kanagusuku, but as his student Yabiku Moden, one of the
important persons responsible for handing over traditional Saikata.
And also Tawada is noticed in the lineage (such entry also found nowhere else),
who was the founder of Tawada-ryu Saijutsu (Tawada no Sai), which was handed
down by Yabiku Moden, and now being degraded as unsophisticated.
No matter how sophisticated your performing and martial art may be: the jumbled
up chaos and constructed suggestive arguing has brought up fruits which I
witnessed personally, so I am "educated" to respond to such threads,
no matter what you feel.
Quote:
|
I normally try to stay out of heated debates as they
prove childish, however naive posts tend to coax a response out of me to
individuals I feel aren't educated to respond to such threads. |
Apart from that: yes, it looks good. 
Andreas Quast
Andreas,
I had a conversation with Oshiro sensei about Yamanni Ryu and the weapons that
were taught. Mr. Oshiro was quite open with me and said that Yamanni Ryu was
just the bo. That's all that he knew of Yamanni Ryu and that the knowledge of
the other weapons that he learned came from other sources. He tells the story
of asking his bo teacher about learning sai and other weapons. He said that Mr.
Kishaba told him to go pick up a pair of sai and go find someone to teach him.
The point of all of this is that while Mr. Kishaba can wield a mighty fine sai,
he only teaches as Yamanni ryu, the bo. The sai tonfa, nunchaku and kama, as
Mr. Oshiro said is "MSG", something to give flavor and has come frome
other sources, including Mr. Oshiro himself. Of the Sai kata that he taught,
the closest thing to a "traditional" sai kata was his version of Kyan
no Sai. The others either one of the Kishaba bros made up themselves or Mr.
Oshiro made up himself. He was quite up front about that.
I'd be very "interested" if the story had changed from the one that
he, himself, told me.
With regard to the bo kata in the video, the Choun No Kon (sho and dai) were
authored by Chogi Kishaba. They're not in any way shape or form to be confused
with the Choun kata in Matayoshi kobudo. I've not seen the kanji, but I was
told by Mr. Oshiro that the kanji in the RBKD Choun kata reflect the characters
of Chogi Kishaba's name. Ryubi no kon is also a "fundamental kata"
that was brought in to teach the methodology of Yamanni Ryu, but isn't a kata
that came from Yamanni Ryu. I belive it was a kata taught in Mr. Nagamine's
dojo known as "Shiromatsu No Kon". Again Mr. Oshiro was upfront about
that as well. The Shuji no kon Sho in the video is a slightly altered version
of the Shuji no Kon of Yamanni Ryu. The differences are that the winding blocks
were removed to make the kata a little easier to learn.
With regard to the Yamanni Shuji no kon, I've seen the Shorinkan group do the
exact same kata in competitions that I've judged. They call it
"Yamane-No-Bo-Shusi-No-Kon". In speaking with Pat Haley, he said that
Mr. Nakazato studied with Masami Chinen, so it's not surprising that the two
kata are similar. However, while the movements and order of movements are the
same, the dynamics of the movements are very different between the groups that
come from Kishaba and the Shorinkan group. The Shorinkan group's movements that
I've seen seem more consistant with the Shinken Taira and Kenshin Ryu derived groups
that I've seen.
Rob
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