Monday, May 1, 2023

A discussion on Isshinryu Kata Changing

 





Jan Blacha  Why are the katas different from Shimabuku Tatsuo to Uzeu Angi to Tsuyoshi  Uechi different? Was this due to Angi?


 Christopher Matsumura Rozek It goes even further than that. There are sooooo many variations out there.

 

Jan Blacha You are correct. I just wanted to addtesd the katas.

 

Christopher Matsumura Rozek Oh yeah. I am talking about the kata. Beyond that.... even more differences.

 

Brian Esposito It may even go back to Tatsuo Sensei, himself. I seem to remember reading that Tatsuo kept improving/modifying the kata, so that what people brought back from studying with him in later years, was different than his earlier students.

 

Robert Ramos yes i have gone to diff dojos and each one tells me im doing kata wrong what is the right way? I was told that we were doing kata the way A.U taught it

 

Bri-yan Koh-vax And that's the fault of the instructor for not recognizing that the katas morphed. It's the "my way is the only way" mentality, which I believe is the antithesis of Isshinryu...

 

Jan Blacha I do them as taught to me on the 1960s. But joined Uechi’s organization and see that they are a bit different. No issues, I can do them both wąys..

 

Robert Ramos i understand what your saying B -Y K-V but some of these guys were taught by some of the early masters and say their way is the only way you cant tell someone with a 7th dan and above they arnt keeping up with the times they get vary upset

 

Robert Ramos yes i was asked to lead the clases in basics and i was taught to do them forward and backwards i was told vary loudly that they dont back up or run if each dojo do things their way that would mean that you could never be 100% if your lucky enough to stay with one dojo for traininng life you will fine but for some reason you have to change dojos one or a few times you will always do things diff from what you firvp learned someone need to make all things standard io isshin ryu

 

 Bri-yan Koh-vax Robert Ramos standardization is next to impossible. There are so many associations and so many schools that do things "their way" because they either don't know any other way or don't care to know any other way. Don't let it bother you and just do your best

 

Christopher Matsumura Rozek One thing I have said a few times in the past is the variations are, even though frustrating, can shine new light on kata. Different ways to look at things help you dig even deeper. My biggest issue, is when I see a technique added that was never there. Kills me. lol

 

John Lemuel Actually Uezu sensei did change the kata . Uechi sensei saw the 66 films of soke and wanted to do the kata the original way. He then broke away and used the films as a guide line . He now does kata pretty close but there are still a few things he does differently . All of the original pioneers did kata very close. Mitchum , long , Nagle , and Armstrong .

 

Craig Ross TS changed the kata over his career in teaching for one reason of another. He used to change the Kia points all the time. My Sensei who was one of his students used to say the master used to tell people "Kia twice anyplace ok except nihanchi". He used to evolve they kata as he saw it required it. Uezu Sensei changed some parts of the kata but mostly just over emphasizing certain subtle moves. I do not believe he added anything completely foreign to any kata (citation needed?). Uechi Sensei learned from Uezu Sensei so that lineage is there. When Uechi Sensei would teach me Siesan, he would show me a different ankle break in the end from what my other Sensei taught. Both are correct just slightly different. Same with most of the other kata.

 

Robert Ramos i was always told that Master.T.S.   Taught new katas to Master A.U. ?  And that is what i was taught

 

John Lemuel Jan asked a question.. I knew the answer and replied to help her out .. any changes Uezu made on his own..

 

Mike Oliver @john how do we know that?

 

ERozmin-Sensei Lakan Dalawa I am in agreement with Brian Esposito, and would like to add that not everyone is the same physically and intillectually,It is known that not only Tatsuo but many "Masters" altered and modified thier carriculum based on a students particular attributes and abilities. Also as a result of liniage interpretation and source variance base lines with wide variation would develop, however I also believe Tatsuo understood that there would be change and variation from his studies and experiences. I believe that his famous quote " All Bottles are good" refers to this. My Shihan has stated to me many times that he believes if Tatsuo where still alive the Kata ( and Techniques) of Isshinryu would look profoundly different. Tatsuo was an innovator years prior to ,but in the spirit of , the famous Martial arts Innovators Including the likes of Bruce Lee and others like him. Those who interpret and represent thier Isshinryu as the True liniage, only way or the "True Way" in my opinion are not only wrong but are not practicing in the spirit in which Tatsuo meant for Isshinryu to exist.


John Aiello Because Shimabuku taught each of his senior students to his strengths. He that Armstrong things that he didnt teach Long, or Uezu,etc and vice versa

 

Sherman Harrill used to repeat something at every clinic I attended with him. “What we have in common is far more important than our differences” I believe that. And he backed that up by taking whatever version you were using and showing you how to better use it. We all can continue to learn something from that.

 

 

Romney Taylor Kata change because the understanding of them changes.
Unless simply teaching movements , our (as a sensei) understanding
will influence the kata practice of our students.

Kata are where the differences in understanding manifest in
a noticeable form, the real differences are systemic throughout
the training program.

This is not new in any method or lineage.
Goju-ryu, and Shorin -Ryu have at least as
Many variations , and differences.

 

Romney Taylor To me if I bow differently then someone else
as I begin the kata it is not a difference in kata.
These differences are window dressing,
symbols of organizations and leadership ,
The same as flags and standards of an army.

We need to look beyond these distractions to
See the difference in understanding, in strategy
And tactics.

Once we have analyzed the difference in understanding
manifest in the teachings of the various students of Tatsuo
Shimabuku, we will have a better understanding of what
was really being taught, and not just the perspective of
a students who often was only exposed to the direct teaching
of Tatsuo Shimabuku for a short period of time .
Can we really expect that all aspects of the system could
Be imparted in a short window of exposure?

I think we expect to much of most of these early students
and pride in our teachers and lineage
Etc make us stubborn , and thin skinned.

In the end or lineages many have different badges, banners, and
Pennants , but we are all under one flag, we should not forget this.

 

Joe Lembke Funny, This question seems to come up periodically regarding differences in kata between Master Shimabuku and Master Uezu and now master Uechi. I train in the Uezu lineage as my instructors taught me, but I don't argue whats right and wrong, I just enjoy training. My question is who taught Sensei Kichiro the kata? The IWKA is a rather large organization and I have seen variations in the kata within this group.

 

Victor Donald Smith One of the guys who trained with me and Charles Murray attended Penn State and trained with the Isshinryu group there, It seems each time Kichero Sensei would make his annual visit, he changed many things, like the type of striking used and kata changes as well. He told them his thinking was evolving. Of course this is second hand, but Dave David always told it as he saw it.

 

Dan Jason Price In summary... from above - I believe Shimabuku Tatsuo Soke understood there would be change and variation from his studies and experiences. I believe that his famous quote " All Bottles are good" refers to this. Some have stated many times that he believes if TS where still alive the Kata ( Techniques) of Isshinryu would look profoundly different. TS was an innovator years prior to ,but in the spirit of , the famous Martial arts Innovators (Bruce Lee) and others like him.


Sherman Harrill used to repeat something at every clinic, “What we have in common is far more important than our differences” I believe that. And he backed that up by taking whatever version you were using and showing you how to better use it. We all can continue to learn something from that.


I seem to remember reading that Tatsuo kept improving/modifying the kata, so that what people brought back from studying with him in later years, was different than his earlier students.


Standardization is next to impossible. There are so many associations and so many schools that do things "their way" because they either don't know any other way or don't care to know any other way. Do your best


Master A Uezu sensei did change the katas. Uechi sensei saw the 1966 film of Soke and wanted to do the kata the original way, and then used the films as guide lines . He now does kata pretty close, but there are still a few things different. All of the original pioneers did kata very close to. Mitchum, Long , Nagle , and Armstrong .


In the end or lineages many have different badges, and banners, but we are all under one flag, we should not forget this. It's the "my way is the only way" mentality, which I believe is the antithesis of Isshinryu...


 

 





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