https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KImhKRdUUrE&t=5s
*Has anyone been able to pull of the dump/throw as smoothly as Norbert
*Donnelley does on his website? I believe that is isshinryu.com. It
*makes much more sense to perform the throw in this fashion than
*trying to actually pick up the poor soul, spin around, then lift them
*again over your head only to be body-slammed...as the traditional
*explanation goes.
*Mal
Greetings - Mal San, I was originally taught this movement as a shoulder wheel, it is my opinion that you need to be a small person, at least smaller than your opponent to make this come off well, it does not require strength, and you don't lift them up either , you just get in the way, strike the groin and guide him over your back letting him drop to the floor before you turn around not after. I have actually used this in a form of free kumite with a large Man who got tired of trying to catch me with kicks/punches and lunged at me to finally get his hands on me, It wasn't quite as pretty as sensei Donnelly's but I had the big lug off the ground and dropped him harder than I intended on his back, because I was trying to ease his fall, I turned around at the same time he was falling, rather then ease the fall, I lost my balance and fell on top of him just after he hit the floor, don't know who was more surprised him or me, but he never lunged at me again, and I was not about to tell him, I probably could not do that move again if I live to 100.
Anyway, I honestly don't think that this is what the movement was actually intended to be , we just took a sport technique and inserted it here because it looks similar. My opinion is this is a cultural movement preserved in the kata (I can hear some people groaning ) the dump goes back to the days when you might be defending something like a boat or a wall and you wanted to pitch some fool off or over, in which case the
movement makes some sense anyway.
As far as the kata goes I think a practical application is more of a dumping movement, There are several ways to do it depending on his size and if he was kicking/punching or lunging at you, My favorite and one I have done to the unsuspecting during our little rendori sessions is to grab him high, and pull with the left hand at the same
time the right hand strikes the groin (i used the hips to be nice in practice) and pushes outward or away from you , this pulls the opponent way of balance, because
from the waist up he is moving toward you and then the hips and below are moving in the opposite direction away from you, as soon as you feel his weight, turn bringing your opponent over your hip, and attempting to dump him head first (unless your being nice) in front of you. Try it works nice, and if you time it well there is no real lifting involved and he actually doesn't come that far off the ground.
There are a lot of levels to this technique I guess, and reasons to teach the movement differently depending on what your trying to teach or preserve.
Comments
Nice r.t.^..^ Romney
I take a slightly different approach to the throw. I find that the fireman's carry method to feel to sloppy, and lacks the control I prefer. To apply the throw, I add an extra step (similar to the one required for the Seuichin throw) in which after the grab, I step in
bringing the feet together to throw similar to the hip or arm throws and do a pivoting hip throw with the step out allowing me to drive the person down with as much force as I like.
Really gives a lot of control and feels very powerful.
Mike
Hi Mal,
I see a couple of different throws that can come out of that action, but for the "Fireman's throw" I wouldn't pick him up, turn, them dump him, but rather pick him up, dump him and them turn.
Have a look here to see what I mean. http://judoinfo.com/video4.htm
The one under Suginoha Ryu, turns after the throw.
...and the throw is called "kata guruma" by Judo folk.
Andrew
The dump throw.....
You can do it smoothly but not like Donelly. When you execute the throw grab
from the back of the opponent instead of the common way of thinking, the front.
In other words you can grab the groin and neck from the back, grasp the
opponent close to you, then throw.
This works where grabbing the front only causes your opponent to duoble up from
the groin grab and consequently it naturally counters the throw. From the
back you can hug his back into your chest and lift.
Tom
Yes, it looks like a well practiced technique by both people. {:o)
The throw I do is easy because it doesn't require me to lift or
support my opponent in any way. When I practice it statically I use
the movements from Wansu but when I do it off of a punch I use the
movements as in Sunsu.
Basically, you slide inside your opponent and upper block his punch.
As you slide back into cat stance you grasp his punching arm (right)
with your left hand and pull him violently with you. When his
momentum comes toward you, reverse your direction and slide past him
on his right side, lifting his arm up and over your head. this places
him behind you with no way of getting ahold of you. As he passes with
his arm raised just drop his arm to his foot. He does a neat little
forward roll and you turn into horse stance and break the elbow of
the arm you are still holding.
Very little effort required but timing is needed to get his momentum
moving toward you. It is much easier off of a punch as he does all
the work for you.
Ian
Hi again Ian,
This sounds like a viable option, but from your description I see a
difference in our katas. Actually I noticed that same thing in the Wansu
video form Sensei Adams site also. I don't do the double movement. In that
video, the performer shoots in and does the groin strike, then back into a
cat stance (as you've described below) then in again to do the lift for the
throw. I just slide in the one time, strike, grab and throw. Interesting.
I really like the idea of throwing/rolling him over your shoulders then
spinning into a horse and finishing. Makes much more sense then spinning
with him on my shoulders. Thanks again.
Be Well,
Reese
Other of my posts on this:
https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2017/05/analysis-of-wansu-dump.html
https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2023/01/saturday-saturday5302008.html
https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-histoy-behind-karate-throwing.html
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