Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue have a dialogue on the old CD - Part 8

Back in 1997 I was new to the internet and the CyberDojo. Almost immediately I found a lengthy dialogue between  Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue.

Patrick was a well known competitor, practitioner and author on his arts. He knew George as his book editor at Tuttle, but not as a martial artist.

George had been raised in Japan, was on an old Samuri tv series as a youth playing the younger version of the samurai for flashbacks when he learned vartiou lessons. He later trained in karate on Okinawa. Established a Kashiba Juku group in the states and eventually became the martial arts editor  for Tuttle Publications.

Knowing that Patrick was in a somewhat heated discussion on the CD when George weighed in. Beginning what would be a lengthy discussions of an extremely erudite level of discourse. I do not know of another discussion of similar character. A discussion that does not exist  today.

This will be challenging but well worth the effort.

Because of it's length I am breaking it into several parts.
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From Digest 1387  Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:07:01 CDT



Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:16:34 +0000
From: JANOSND@mail.bay.k12.fl.us
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: KARATE digest 1386
Message-ID: <71D0D32338E@mail.bay.k12.fl.us>

Dear Mr. McCarthy (and all!),
Thank you for your kind words about my teachers and especially about  Shinzato Sensei, as I consider them to be not only my sensei, but  also some of my best friends. I am aware of your time(s) spent with  them and they have spoken well of you. I too, look forward to meeting  you some day ( I hope in the not too distant future!) and I will  gladly pass along your greetings to Shinzato Sensei as you have  asked.

I am also aware of Mr. Oshiro's videos and involvement with the Kishaba brothers. His video excursions, no matter how good, are not necessarily endorsed by the Kishaba's, who would never make a commercial video themselves. Neither are his video efforts condemned by the Kishaba brothers. They prefer to let each student choose their own path and interfere with their choices as little as possible. Mr. Oshiro is a highly talented martial artist who has learned from the very best, he is a dynamic and well qualified teacher that can impart to any student a lot of knowledge and awe inspiring moments. I must point out, however, that his karate shown in the "Uchinadi" tapes is not necessarily representative of Kishaba Chokei Sensei's teaching curriculum or technique. (Nor does he claim it to be.)

I guess that exploitation is here to stay. I'm not sure that it is a  bad thing, but I wonder how far it can go before the true arts lose too much of their soul in the process? As Shinzato Sensei told me, "Through strenuous training we have to foster an ability to discern high quality of the art, otherwise we may be deceived."
Thanks again,
 
Paris Janos

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From Digest 1389 Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:07:45 CDT



Date: 12 Aug 97 20:12:06
From: gdonahue@randomhouse.com
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Kishaba Juku
Message-ID: <199708130010.AA20911@interlock.randomhouse.com>

Hello everyone.  I've been inadvertently quiet -- I sent this originally on Friday night, but it seems to have bounced into the ozone, as I never saw it in the subsequent CD digests.  I'll take the opportunity to cut it a little.  If you get it twice, this is the final.

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My children returned yesterday from three weeks in Spain visiting los abuelos, so I'm back to my normal schedule of often being a day or two behind in my CD reading, and I won't have the time to indulge my passion for friendly debate.  My three-week "vacation," of course, is what allowed me to get deep into the recent titles debate in this forum -- it was great!  So it's back to the scattered, irregular response system.  I don't have time to write what follows, but a neighbor's loud party music woke my children, so they woke me.  I put them back to sleep, but now I'm wide awake at 3 am.

Patrick McCarthy commented on the seemingly odd choice of the word "juku" for part of the name of Kishaba-sensei's system.  Paris Janos has explained the choice, and I'd like to add a little to his explanation.

Some background:  For years, we didn't use any special name at all, just Shorin or Matsubayashi Ryu, as that is the system we trained in originally and our group is still not totally different from Nagamine-sensei's group.  Many of us are active in both and we'll always refer to Nagamine Shoshin as O-Sensei.  In addition, we were previously students of Nakamura Seiji, too, and would be happily studying with him still, had he not had to retire from an active role because of ill health.  Years after his retirement, I'm just starting to absorb some of his lessons.  Kishaba-sensei, as Nakamura-sensei's senior and most  talented student, as well as his co-instructor, took on full esponsibility for all the other students at that time and has worked tirelessly to teach all of us.  In gratitude to him, we began to informally refer to what we practice as Kishaba Ha Shorin (or Matsubayashi) Ryu.  As Kishaba-sensei is a very modest man, he never really liked this, though.  It was the students who stubbornly insisted upon keeping it anyway, and at last, in 1995, Kishaba-sensei relented.  As Paris recounted, because of its association with Japanese  organized crime "families" that prey on Okinawa and other bad elements, the word "Ha" was not acceptable to him so we had to look for something else.

The choice of the word "juku" was not taken lightly.  We had actually discussed this, via e-mail and in person, among ourselves for several years.  We're all aware that in current Japanese usage it usually refers to a "cram school" where  high school students are intensively and joylessly prepped for the university admissions exams or junior high students are prepped for the elite high schools.  We're also aware of its older usage.  Kishaba-sensei's teaching methods fit well with both.  Although he's dedicated his life to intense practice and teaching of karate, he is not a professional teacher (although the students do contribute toward paying the dojo rent, he has never charged any of his students for his teaching, nor did Nakamura-sensei before him) so all his students attain that status by invitation only.  In that sense, the system is very private and elite.  (They're so enthusiastic in their love for karate, however, that they do often welcome -- and share generously with -- foreign guests who show the proper deportment.)  In addition, until about fifteen years ago, most of the people invited to train were exceptional athletes and already  well established as karate practitioners.  Kishaba-sensei enjoyed the challenge of refining his teaching methods to the point of being able to take new students of modest mental and/or physical talent (the category I occupy as one of his first experimental guinea pigs) and cram them so full of good stuff that they can't help but become extraordinarily good karateka.  (I'm still working on this part, but I'm sure that it will happen one day. After all, why should I be the only exception?)  One of the main components of his teaching method is to push all of his students just a little harder than they think they can take, teach them just a little more than they think they can learn, and treat them as though they're just a little more talented than they might really be.  It's the push-pull-overload method of teaching, just as in modern cram schools.  The only difference is that the cram schools are grim, while Kishaba-sensei's dojo, true to his name, is a delightful place.  Still, many karateka cannot adapt to this sort of learning, which uses only positive reinforcement -- including an occasional positively reinforcing whack or two.   ;-)

We as a group like the word "juku."  During Kishaba-sensei's last visit to the U.S., he graciously extended to several of his students recognition as teachers of branches of his dojo.  I guess he resigned himself to the fact that we're not ever going to quit bothering him.  Thus, my dojo went from being called Ryukyu Kichigaikan of New York City to its current name of Kishaba Juku of New York City.  I liked the old name, which referred to Kishaba-sensei (and to Shinzato-sensei and Paris, too) more obliquely and was a good description of our attitude, but I like the new one too, and it very definitely is descriptive of the way we teach here, as well.  It's a deliberate and thoroughly considered statement of fact.

I would never have included Kishaba-sensei's name as part of the dojo name -- that would definitely be exploitation of the worst kind -- had he not suggested it himself.  We are, however, intensely exploiting Kishaba-sensei's teaching methods to teach efficient biomechanics to generate grace, power, and speed in karate.  Both for our own students and for others who are interested in incorporating Kishaba-sensei's methods into whatever systems of karate they profess.

Thanks, everyone, for reading through yet another long post.


George Donahue
----------
gdonahue@randomhouse.com / gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com
Kishaba Juku of New York City at the Ken Zen Institute of Japanese Martial Arts
and Culture Okinawa Karate-Do Shorin Ryu Kishaba Juku / Matsubayashi Ryu / Ryukyu Kobujutsu Nana korobi, ya oki.

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From Digest 1395 Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:07:20 CDT


Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:40:39 -0400
From: gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Okinawa-philes - longish, of course
Message-ID: <19970819.004530.25206.0.gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com>

Bob McMahon wrote, some time ago:

>Hello Mr. Donohue,
>
> May I say how I too have enjoyed this cordial exhange
> between my friend, Patrick McCarthy, Kyoshi, and
> yourself. I am somewhat amazed to see Patrick, for
> once, not in the position of vigoriously defending
> Okinawan Karate.

Thanks Bob.  (I hope that you and Mr. McCarthy will call me George.  I gladly accept Mr. McCarthy's invitation to join you and his other two friends in calling him Patrick, too.)  I've enjoyed it, as well.  I wish I had more time for these discussions, as I seldom fail to learn something -- whether about the subject under discussion or about myself.   :-)

My only reservation on entering these discussions, no matter the merits of the points discussed, is that they sometimes, rightly or wrongly, come across as being fueled primarily by the egos of the participants. Particularly when the participants are passionate in their beliefs, as Patrick and I are.  This was brought to focus in the several messages in response to our discussion that had the header "Donahue v. McCarthy," which hit distressingly close to home for me, because, in my case, ego is definitely an abundant source of this fuel.  I hope, though, that my points can stand independent of my vanity and serve us all to think a little more about what we do and say in our martial arts practice and about the nature of our practice.  I hope that everyone in the CD knows that our minor disagreements on the details don't preclude our mutual respect or our agreement on the fundamentals.

It was a slow transformation for me to be in the position of championing Okinawan tradition, too, as I started life so strongly Kanto-centric that I thought that, with the possible exceptions of Nara and Kyoto, anything outside of Tokyo and south of say, Fujisawa, was the extreme boondocks (add Yokohama to the list of exceptions, Howard).  I only vaguely knew the difference between Okinawa and Korea -- just that they were both conquered territories that were no longer under Japanese control, that American armies had done lots of fighting in both places, and that both had sea on at least three sides.  In fact, the first time I saw Okinawan Matsubayashi Ryu, I went home and told my mother that I'd just seen an interesting Korean style of karate that I was thinking of joining.  She pointed out that Korean karate was descended from Shotokan, and that it might be better for me to study closer to the source.  It was only after I started studying that I realized that I had inadvertently heeded my mother's advice, and then some, for a rare change.

> I have had discussions with Patrick in which I have
> defended modern Japanese Karate, especially the
> sporting aspects, and he has clearly stated that he is
> not against Karate competition as such but objects to
> the political conniving and control powerplays he has
> witnessed in competition-based organisations all too
> often. He prefers to do his own thing, also, rather than
> be dictated to by bureaucracy.

I agree.  I don't think that this infighting is limited to competition-based organizations, however.  It seems to affect any organization that hits critical mass.


> As he is totally dedicated to preserving Okinawan Martial
> Arts and is the only westerner I know of, today, who has
> sacrificed so many years of his life to trace the very
> origins of MA, especially the Kata... I find it strange that he
> even appears to be on the other side of this debate.

Me too.  But surely, it can't have been a sacrifice.  From Patrick's books, it sounds as though he has had a blast.  A very fortunate man, to be able to pursue his dream so fruitfully.  In fact one of the things I admire most about him is his skill along those lines.

> He does not disclose all that he has discovered in his
> research, as it is distressing to many whom have been
> led to believe otherwise.

A little distress is not bad -- witness the debate that's currently invigorating the Isshin community.  Growth is not possible without stress.  More openness about these things is definitely in all of our interest -- we can take it, especially here in the friendly confines of the CD.  And what better sounding board?  I've run a flag or two up the pole to see who salutes, and it's been edifying and extremely helpful to me.
> I suspect in this case he is trying to put forward the fact that
> he believes in the true principals, history, moral
> philosophy and applications of Karate.  He has often
> impressed on me the importance of the saying that goes
> something like 'Place principles ahead of personalities,
> virtues before vanity and values before vice'.

I think he's doing a good job in putting forward these beliefs.  And, since the quality of a man's beliefs are generally commensurate to the quality of his friends, I have no hesitation in seeing them to be from the heart.  My only caution is against rigidity, even in cherished benevolent beliefs.  I'd add to Patrick's litany, as mitigation, some of
the things I frequently have to remind myself of:  Never let principles blind you to compassion, lest you be a principled scoundrel; rejoicing in virtue is the strongest vanity; and an easy vice is more humane than a willful virtue.  This is basically a paraphrase of chapter 38 of the Tao Te Ching, one of my favorite sources for martial arts training tips.

> Often when somebody (read Karate bigwig) has
> disappointed me I am reminded that the personalities
> may let me down but the principles of Karate never will.

We find it productive in this neck of the woods to call these people"coffee dans."  (I think Paris Janos coined the term.)  They can never disappoint us, because they're always good at sitting at the table in the front and drinking their coffee with great skill while the rest of us work out in the lesser arts of karate.


> I also understand why he would oppose the proliferation
> of high Dan grades when he has completed extensive
> ground-breaking research that is recognised by the
> 'Harvard University' of Martial Arts (DNB) to thoroughly
> deserve his hard earned credentials while others are
> 'rewarded' by their organisation for long or not-so-long
> service.

The annoyance is understandable.  There is, however, also a great proliferation of quiet bujutsuka who never receive (and don't seek) any public recognition worth mention whatsoever.  So these things balance out.  We also need to remember that, until quite recently in geologic time, Harvard was the exclusive playground of the rich and well connected.  Admission was hardly based on principles of meritocracy, and the "gentleman's C" was the rule for those who didn't care to exert themselves.  All exclusive organizations exclude, and the exclusion is often arbitrary, and independent, humble men often have no desire to mold themselves into a shape that will prove acceptable to overcome the exclusion.

I think that a possible solution is to never use such terms as "hanshi" or "kyoshi" without the also naming the source of the title.  Just as a Harvard grad inevitably will find it expedient to emphasize the source of his MBA, martial artists could make sure to mention the provenance of their titles:  George Donahue, 12th dan, hanshi, soke, kaicho, A-OK Karate and Dance Studios of mid-town NYC, 1997 (special honor:  voted
most likely to become homeless in next recession).  That title would certainly pale in comparison to most.  On the other hand, almost everyone in the martial arts would recognize Patrick's title for the genuine article.

> Naturally as Karate appears to be your passion not your
> livlihood, whereas Karate occupies almost every minute
> of Mr. McCarthy's life, you can not be affected by this issue
> the way a professional teacher of his stature can be.
> There are very few, I dare say, who would have Patrick
> McCarthy's exceptional ability, knowledge or skill [maybe
> I'm biased :~)] but there are a vast number sporting a
> higher grading.

Here, I disagree.  I think that professional artists (martial and otherwise) tend to underestimate the importance of arts to those who choose not to make their passion their source of income.  I hold the exact opposite view.  It seems to me that the impassioned amateur is never off duty, while a professional, when he's out of the office, is. Many professionals, of course, are able to remain unjaded and to retain the passion that attracted them initially to their chosen professions.  (These people are a cross, a sort of professional amateur or amateur professional).  As many if not more, though, assume a tired, burnt-out core barely or not at all disguised by their facade of upbeat professional enthusiasm for a job that no longer fascinates them, except inasmuch as it gratifies them financially or in their quest for status. Professionals also tend to forget that it is the passion of the amateurs that allows them a market for their professional skills.  Amateurs love the art enough to actually pay lots of money to train at a seminar, for example, while professionals -- with many exceptions, and many of those exceptions right here in the CD -- often do not love the art enough to donate their teaching skills or knowledge to those unable to pay the price.

> Great stuff... good luck!

Thanks, Bob, I'll need it, I'm sure.  ;-)    I'm looking forward to
meeting you and Patrick one day soon.

Gambatte!

George



George Donahue
----------
gdonahue@randomhouse.com / gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com
Kishaba Juku of New York City at the Ken Zen Institute of Japanese
Martial Arts and Culture
Okinawa Karate-Do Shorin Ryu Kishaba Juku / Matsubayashi Ryu / Ryukyu
Kobujutsu
Nana korobi, ya oki.

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