Spin off discussion from the Subject: Historical Prescedent for Miyagi's Gekki-sai

1-2-2002


Hello everyone:


Interesting thread on Miyagi's Gekki-sai series. I would just like to add a few points.

I am not sure if everyone is aware of this, but it is worth mentioning as I feel it is pertinent to Miyagi's development of the Gekki-sai series.

On March 28, 1937, the Karate-do Promotion Society (including Yabu Kentsu, Hanashiro Chomo, Kyan Chotoku, Chibana Choshin, Miyagi Chojun, Shiroma  Shimpan, Nakasone Genwa and Chitose Tsuyoshi (aka Chinen Gochoku) held a  formal discussion on the future development and direction of Karate-do.

 

The result of this meeting was two fold:


1) That the classical kata of each tradition should be preserved
2) That new kata should be established.


The specifics of these newly established basic karate-do kata included six fundamental points:


1. Young and old, men and women should be able to train in karate-do and to develop at a suitable level. Therefore, specific teaching material should be developed for training.
2. Karate-do should be made easier to acquire.
3. Practice using the basic kata should be easy to remember
4. The movements of the classical kata should be taught correctly and accurately.
5. Karate-do as a form of physical education should train each part of the body in a balanced manner.
6. Physical exercise and development of martial spirit should be combined together.



Within a few short months after the conclusion of this meeting, the group formally established a series of twelve basic kata which were ultimately published in Nakasone Genwa's (Ed.), 1938 "Karate-do Taikan".


Interestingly, these kata were never adopted by mainstream Okinawan karate schools. One can only speculate as to why, the most obvious reason being the interruption of life on Okinawa due to W.W.II. Be that as it may, they seem to have been abandoned to time.


Now, what this shows IMHO, is that Miyagi (and others) in the 1930's were leaning towards developing a new series of Physical Education based kata which could be used across stylistic barriers. Later, Miyagi seems to have revisited this project (albeit to a lesser extent) with Nagamine Shoshin in the 1940's.


I have included the first two sequences (in separate posts) from the first kata (going right to left) to give you an idea of how they went. They were based on an "I" enbusen and focused on very basic karate techniques.


Cheers,

Mario
   



Ron & Victor:
>

Glad you found the post helpful. I have pretty much finished up the translation of the book and have been editing it here and there. Still waiting to hear back from Tuttle Co. :-)



Thank you Mario,


> This is very helpful. Is it you or Joe who is working on a
translation into english of this work and when is the expected date it will be available? I can't wait to see what else this book contains.
:) It is obvious that it follows the shuri line due to the stances. I
wonder what Miyagi's imput in on this was. IT seems he was trying to cooperate with the idea of the six points, or at least returned to the theme.>


Good question. The kata seem to follow "shuri" style tendencies
compared to "naha" based forms. Who exactly contributed what is unknown as there are no details concerning the contribution of each member. But to take an educated guess, I would bet that the largest contributions and / or final say in the form these kata took (no pun intended :-), would have rested with senior members. Most likely Yabu and Hanashiro who had already been teaching karate in the school system for several decades by then. Junior members, including Miyagi, would have simply gone with the status quo IMHO. That wonderful asian  tradition of respecting your seniors.



-Do you think this all originated with Itosu and the Heian
kata and was just a refinement of those for a group means to cross style barriers? and was Miyagi trying to revive this?>

Miyagi's Gekki-sai

I think it was an honest attempt to step across "style" barriers and provide some unity and logical progression in karate pedagogy.


As for Miyagi possibly following in Higashionna's footsteps in trying to introduce Nahate into the school system. I do not think it is that far fetched. Joe Swift related an interesting story told to him by Kinjo Hiroshi sensei. (Correct me if I am wrong Joe-san :-) It appears that one senior offical of the Okinawa prefectural board of education decided that Nahate was "unsuitable" for developing young me after wittnessing Nahate's San Chin and training methods. So, instead of becoming part of the school PE curriculum like Itosu's "Karate", Higashionna's "te" was only able to maintain it's after school club status... Wonder if that was one reason Higashionna went back on the bottle?


<This gives me some dates at least and is very interesting.
You do not happen to know roughly the dates we know of the first introduction of each of the kata Miyagi taught, the 6 not taught by Higashionna. If not the dates then the first references of the students he taught each particular one of the six to do you?


Sorry, can't be of help there. I haven't come across any literature
(English or Japanese) giving specific dates. One thing that is
interesting though, in what little I have come across, Miyagi seems to have emphasized San Chin and Seiunchin when teaching at the High Schools and Police Academy.


<I am interested in the order of introduction and the time
period they seemed to follow.>


Well, if we go my Higaonna Morio, everyone learned a different form. And only An'ichi learned all of them directly from Miyagi :-O


But I honestly don't know in what chronological order that Miyagi introduced the forms.


Cheers,

Mario   


 
One evening right after I had moved to NH, I was down training with Tristan Sutrisno Shotokan school, and he was introducing a Dan balance exercise.


He took the first Taikyouku Kata of Shotokan and began adding
techniques, series after series, making it quite an interesting
balance drill. A great deal of what we did is extremely similar to
Nakasone's book, so much so it continues to give me pause.


[Aside, C.W. Nicole in "Moving Zen" describes somewhat similar training right after he obtained his Sho-Dan in the first class for the new ShoDan students.]


Now I can't independently verify Tris' background, but his skills
were such I don't have a hard time believing it was reasonable.


As I was told his father (who was Indonesian "Achmed Sutrisno" was 'drafted' into the Japanes Navy (I believe the early 30's) and as a Doctor was sent to college (Naval War?) in Japan. There he trained under Funakoshi Sensei, one of Usheiba's students and I don't know what else but he also has quite interesting kobudo kata and sword studies in addition to his Uncle's Indonesian Tjimande, too.


Seeing Nakasone's book, in addition to the kata, Tris's empty hand knife self defenses were eeriely reminiscent of the Jujutsu Knife self defense in that book, too.


All of which could imply 1) the book was part of his father's
training or knowledge (certainly possible) 2) his father's training in Japan paralleled the material in Nakasone 3) it is a great number of unrelated simultaneous experiences 4) some other answer together.


Regardless of historical truth of which I cannot prove, all of these kata resonate within me because of my walk.


It's even more interesting as Joe tells me he doesn't believe they
were incorporated into any 'formal' system, unless their possible
usage within Shotokan is their formal resting place.
 
 
Victor

From a discussion about Questions on Okinawa’s Kata Development 1900 – 1940

2001


It seems my thoughts have stirred the pot, and I truly appreciate the feedback you’ve all shared.


I belive I understand Fernando’s point about Funakoshi’s Taikyoku kata may have been influenced by the 12 kata created from the Karate-do Promotion Society from 1937.  For those kata the embusen is essentially the same as the Taikyhoku kata, and if you substitute the low block for the middle block, the relationship is obvious.
 

But looking at Harry Cook’s work this evening, I notice in the 1935 publication of the ‘Karate-Do Kyohan’  the Taikyoku were not present (but were in the 1956 2nd edition). Mr. Cook also relates there are those who maintain that the Taikyoku were the product of Funakoshi’s son, regardless of later attribution to Shotokan’s founder. I don’t propose the few works I possess will answer those questions, but it certainly is possible Funakoshi sensei would have paid attention to Nakasone’s ‘Karatedo Taikan’ from 1938.

 

I confess I don’t know the Shito Ryu kata Fernando references, yet Mabuni Kenwa, appearing in Nakasone’s work, would be very familiar with those earlier kata.


I appreciate the comments on the social context of trying to develop cross-group standards, and the parallels to Jing Mo Association in China. That is something I hadn’t thought of before and I can see the relevance.


Just an aside on the Jing Mo Association forms. Member systems in the Jing Wu, each system begins their students with the same 10 forms prior to studying the forms of their own style.   

 

Ernest Rothrock used to talk to me quite a bit about how the Eagle Claw system (Ying Jow Pai)  began with a set of 10 common Jing Mo forms. He considered them way to advanced for the normal beginner and requiring many years of preparation for them alone.  

 

I haven’t been following what he is using to develop his new students since the full time switch to Eagle Claw (as my focus has been on our joint Tai Chi work), but he felt another approach would be more sound, to prepare the student.


Where the Chinese took a high road and developed a common set of advanced forms to begin training, I have a different thought about the Okinawan example.


In a nutshell, here are some of my thoughts on the developing open kata practices.


I’m of the impression, preparing secondary school students (among the elite as most Okinawan’s didn’t send their children to school) for military service using the open karate training for physical development, following group orders, and basic karate via the Pinan kata (admittedly not the most basic forms) may have been the reason those forms were created.  


Moving karate from private instruction to large group drill, Itosu’s Pinan kata began to prove their worth.


Then the exercise of Funakoshi and Mabuni (and others) training larger groups in Japan had to raise awareness of further possibilities. That and the force driven from Japan to ‘nationalize’ instruction seem probable instigators to the 1937 Karatedo Promotion Society, and perhaps also for the 1940 Karate-do Special Committee.


I wonder that they were seeking a ‘public’ karate, for public good. Self defense, physical enhancement and group practice. And, that their intent was not to replace a groups curriculum but rather provide something common enough that those who develop the ‘right’ skill could move into one of the specialized Okinawan instructors. In that case the goal of this development may not have been to change any of the ‘systems’.


I believe this is where the choice of review of this potential comes in.


All of our programs, as currently constituted work, we’re living proof of that. I’ve been training young people in Isshinryu for the past 25 years.  I train young people with exactly the same curriculum as I do adults, and because I keep the group size small, permit them to train part time but not lower my standards, those young people who spend the 7 to 9 years average, develop into fairly adequate sho-dan material.


For teaching children I’ve never found reason to ‘simplify the course’, but then keeping the group small allows for some tradeoff advantages.


On the other hand, what I do in a small group setting, would not work well in a very large group as the personal focus we offer would be diluted.  My kata would work, but it would not develop IMO in the same manner.


In my mind, I see a clear case for a simplified ‘public karate’, good for youth, part time adults and older people, using simple kata, which include developmental kata, basic self defense techniques and appropriate drills.  I’m of the opinion, formal study of kata ‘bunkai’ would not be the best focus for this program.   A program which would give some of the basics of self defense, physical enhancement, etc. for those who don’t spend the time into deeper studies.


A good program like that could also become a feeder program for the more talented students into the traditional arts.


I don’t propose current ‘schools’ change their practice, as ‘freedom ‘ rules, for good or for bad.  But I wonder about the offering of more ‘public’ karate, unlike the watered down McDojo variety.


As far as the 12 promotion society kata, the concept is similar to the Sutrisno Weapons kata. In Bo ,Kama and others, the forms are enhancements on the earlier form, working with much the same embusen. Having learnt the first form, on the 2nd form you can simply concentrate on the differences, and gain synergy in technique development.  From that experience, I do understand what those 12 kata are doing. That and the fact the Sutrisno system, uses these kata as a black belt drill, but that’s another topic.


One thing I do believe, there is little need to develop more basic kata. There are enough there to simply consider using them. Such as


    Promotion Kata 1-12
    Fukyugata Kata
    Heian 1-5

Of course there are many other variations possible, but some such curriculum would be sufficient to keep ‘general’ students busy for quite some time.  And I can be charged with just re-inventing Shotokan.


The difference being, however, is ‘Public Karate’ isn’t intended to feed the students into the traditional programs, instead being a complete  program in itself.  It is only in those cases where the students excel and need greater challenges, would I consider them candidates for the traditional studies.


My thoughts on this grow ever more complex.


On this I’ll stop at this.


Victor

The evolution of Funakoshi Ginchin's karate descriptions

It is interesting to see how Funakoshi Ginchin described karate technique in 1925 in his first book. It was more to educate the Japanese Martial establishment that something for his students to follow.

A decade later he did the same in his Karate-Do Kyohan. His description of his karate techniques changed.

Unfortunately this is something very, very few look at, and I think it shows the evolution of his karate as time passed.


 

 Continuing to think on Funakoshi Ginchin’s first work, “Karate Jutsu” from 1925 (I’m reading the excellent new Kodansha translation) I’m quite struck how much changed between that book and his Master Text, the “Karate-Do Kyohan”.

Lets take one aspect, Leg Techniques. Here’s a side by side comparison of what’s described.

Karate Jutsu

Keage (rising kick)
Tobikeri (jump kick)
Mikazuki (crescent-moon kick)
Uchimata (inside thigh kick)
Sotomata (outside thigh kick)
Fumikiri (stamping through kick)
Yoriashi (following leg)
Tobikomi (leaping-in kick)
Nekoashi (cat leg)
Hizauchi (knee strike)
Kerikomi (thrusting kick)
Kehanashi (snapping kick)
Kinteki (kick to testicles)
Namikaeshi (returning wave kick)
Sankakutobi (triangular jump)

Karate Do Kyohan

Front Kick (Mae-geri)
Side Kick (Yoko-geri)
Back Kick (Ushiro-geri)
Roundhouse Kick (Mawashi-geri)
Crescent Moon Kick (Mikazuki-geri)
Stamp-in (Fumikomi)
Knee Strike (Hiza-tsuchi)
Jump Kick (Tobi-geri)
Double Kick (Nidan-geri)
Returning Wave (Nami-gaeshi)

Consider changed:

Keage, Kerikomi, Kehanashi and Kinteki became I believe flavors of Mae-geri.


Tobikeri became Tobi-geri and Nidan-geri.


Nekoashi became a ‘stance’ (with implied immobility) where originally it was defined as “Neokashi refers to the fact that one’s weight is placed primarily on the back leg, while the heel of the front foot is raised like that of a cat, and one advances and retreats noiselessly.”  Which is much more a method of movement.


Speaking of methods of movement. “Yoriashi is used to close the distance when after blocking an attack one is too far away to reach the opponent with a counter-attack. It is also commonly used to suddenly shift one’s position, thereby momentarily draining the opponent’s focused energy and concentration. Movement should be free in any direction, forward or backward, left or right, rather than in a consistent direction.” And “Tobaishi is some what akin to yoriashi, but differs slightly in flavor. In yoriashi both feet stay on the floor, using the legs to move into the opponent, but in tobaishi one’s feet leave the floor like those of a bird in flight, so that one can freely leap into an opponent.”


The knee which was used for Uchimata, Sotomata, and Hizazuchi turns only into Hiza-tsuchi, the tactical descriptions are left behind. “Uchimata – There are time when both arms are occupied in engaging an opponent and victory or defeat are determined through the use of one’s legs. In such situations the knee can be used to forcefully strike the opponent’s inner thigh, or uchimata, thereby causing him to collapse (Execution of this technique depends on the opponent’s position and posture.” Where “Sotomata, is the opposite of uchimata. Once again it is used to strike the opponent’s thigh from the outside to destroy his balance and posture.”  And to save space Hizazuchi describes a knee strike to the opponents head.


I start to see Funakoshi Sensei’s original use of the lower body in a tactical sense, where the later work uses it in a pure technique sense. Likely the direct result of where he took his developing Shotokan.


And look at what wasn’t present, Back Kick, Side Kick, Roundhouse Kick.


We can’t say his original book was the ‘perfect description’ of his knowledge, and may have just what he wanted to expose beginners to in their studies. But the differences show an entirely different shape to his art from 1925 to 1935.


Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
                                                                

A demonstration of Wansu Kata by Norbert Donnelly

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnF0kEqfbJM

 

Japan-China Martial Arts Exchange Association Teaching Materials

01:25 Bagua Lu Zijian　
03:27 Kua Sword Lu Ziken
04:51 Bagua Taiji He Fusheng
07:52 He Fusheng
09:00 Katayi Sansai Sword Ganguanzai
10:44 Masaru Tsunematsu
12:24 Masaru Tsunematsu
13:37 Meridian Club (Taiji) Masaru Tsunematsu
14:41 Masaru Tsunematsu
16:15 Masaru Tsunematsu
17:12 Masaru Tsunematsu
19:55 Tsudori Taiji Gong (Meido Gong) Masaru Tsunematsu
25:32 Tsudō Twelve Single-Handed Sword Methods Masaru Tsunematsu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTvSzBW6Bn8

 

Shugyo and Tai Chi 12-12-2-2001

Shugyo, using kata to arrive at a higher level of consciousness.  Perhaps an interesting concept, perhaps not.  As I also flow through the Yang 108 (and have for 25 years), and a good part of the Wu 108 too, I have some definite thoughts on the incredible misrepresentation done to Tai Chi
.

Tai Chi means a wide range of things. There are those who do it for social exercise (as much of China does each morning). Perhaps some do find it ‘spiritually raising’, but in my practice I see it as it was designed, as in a martial art.


I was a Sho Dan in Isshinryu when I began my studies.  I wasn’t looking for another martial art, just wanted to experience Tai Chi.  My instructor, who is very good, was also a practicing Kung Fu stylist and wasn’t doing Tai Chi as a primary martial art either.  The years have changed my understanding.

Moving very slow (as opposed to doing Tai  Chi when you move very, very fast) may look like meditation, and perhaps you can move slowly meditating, unfortunately I don’t believe you’re doing Tai Chi if you’re doing so.


In the performance of Tai Chi, your total concentration is focused on your flow, maintaining the moving alignment of your body using your breathing and eye movements to focus your practice.  Your mind is more and more aware and focused trying to do all of that.  As you’re movement and alignment are focused to bring your energy to play against an attacker, the visualization of the wind range of applications is also part of the practice.


The longer I train the more I realize anyone whose not following the same intent isn’t doing Tai Chi, but rather a tai chi inspired exercise. That may be useful as exercise, but it doesn’t capture Tai Chi’s essence, either.


My students train with me every Sunday, morning, outside in New Hampshire on my driveway, and have been there for over 15 years. Over 100 degrees in the summer and to –20 degrees in the winter, Wind, Sun, Drizzle and Blustery Snow, all.  We’ve shared the pain of Tai Chi’s explosion in application, we argue and work over ‘Step Back and Repulse Monkey’ (which is a really great way to make a space and as your opponent moves into it, fill his throat with your hand, which I think is really martial).


And BTW, the ‘Step Back and Repulse Monkey’ has changed in differing version of Tai Chi, too, with fully different martial application. If anything Tai Chi is a vaster study in change than all of Okinawa’s Karate combined.  I don’t doubt there are a million different version running out there at any given day.


FYI, my Tai Chi studies has over the years greatly changed how I approach the movement of my Karate. And the study of my Karate’s applications has changed my understanding of Tai Chi, in its own way too.


Change, perception and a good beer.  Isn’t that what its all about.

 

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

David Evseeff and Isshinryu Books 5-24-2001

Back when the internet was relatively new, one of the individuals I met was David Evseeff. I then joined his Isshinryu discussion book and shortly bought his book "Isshinryu Karate-Do", there were far less books on Isshinryu in those days. I found it interesting. I know he was a student of Milledge Murphy and had written the book at Murphy Sensei's request.

In those days there who disagreed with almost everything, becoming quite vocal on the internet about their feelings.  Personally I always felt such behavior using public charges wrong. Very often I would jump into such discussions.  Often to disagree with publicly airing such discussion which ought to have been private, then responding in very reasoned long discussion to make my points.

This was one of those times.

Mr. Cook,



I appreciate your attempt to explain your difficulty with David Evseeff’s book.  Unfortunately the divisive manner in which you write does little to state a case.


I am only familiar with his text “Isshinryu Karate-Do” co-authored with Milledge Murphey.


It is an ambitious attempt to explain the entire Isshinryu experience from Okinawa to America.  A wide range of individuals, including Don Bohan are credited with interview material and photographs. And on the original web-site for the original edition of the Isshinryu List, he did publish corrections and updates for the book which he hoped someday would be incorporated in a later edition.


It is ambitious as there is simply too much to capture that is essentially undocumented to come up with a complete history of Isshinryu.  Probing oral history is almost the only source for much of that information and one persons history is another individuals fiction.


Consider in Okinawa, by tradition, the history and mapping of the systems does not exist, or where it does it is never given to public inspection.  I am aware of one Okinawan group whose senior instructors have done extensive research into the Okinawan Bubushi for the past 5 or 6 generations.  Those notes are only for the next senior instructors.


Kyan and Miyagi essentially left no public written documentation on their system. Motobou did create several books in Japan.  Taira likewise did begin to document his kobudo, but on the whole, most of the Okinawan experience has never been documented for the public. Shimabuku Tatsuo did nothing but follow that tradition. Those who he taught only had their own experience to tell.  When Isshinryu passed into the America’s the seniors essentially followed the same tradition.


Then when books and articles were generated, they told the story from their own point of view, and whatever history they were able to retain, or find.  Inaccuracies passed from author to author becoming fact.


Add to that the ever present intense dislike of so many of the seniors to the efforts of the others, we’re lucky any of them took the time to try and create a new paradigm, documentation regarding their passionate love, Isshinryu.


I honestly believe David’s efforts have merit. They’re not necessarily correct, but he did draw from a wider group of sources than most have attempted, and the photographs preserved in the book alone more than justify whatever the book costs.


But all of the books have authors, all of them are the products of the training and experiences they have seen, and the stories passed on to them. And at some essential level, they all represent only one point of view.


I’ve written a little on Isshinryu and other martial subjects myself. While I freely share my explorations, I have no personal desire to ‘explain’ the Isshinryu system. Frankly, I question whether anybody can gather source material the rest of the Isshinryu world will freely accept.


Consider you have some personal problem with David explaining Isshinryu Seisan having a ‘catch’ or a ‘stack’. Both terms I’ve experienced from different Isshinryu instructors myself.  The fact you don’t like a term or an example, is a rather poor excuse to frame criticism of a work. Frankly, depending on the level of maturity of the student involved, the terms can be used successfully to describe various events in Kata Seisan. The deeper fact that any movement has infinite potential uses, in no way inviolate the simpler answer for a beginner or intermediate student. The fact you may choose not to accept some answers simply is your own personal belief.


The next problem with Isshinryu books, is they can only capture one or some of the answers. Such as the ‘right’ way to do a kata [Which David’s book dodges by not showing any kata.] My instructor Tom Lewis trained with Shimabuku Tatsuo. He also taught many variations of the kata (a practice I do not do myself). The source of those variations were Shimabuku Tatsuo.  If I were to document a ‘kata book’ with my training, there would be variations on the kata performed. I know 100% this would offend those who have the correct way.  Now I’m comfortable with the reality of my training, and really have no desire to document it for the rest. But it highlights one of many difficulties in preparing anything ‘acceptable’.


Now David’s love of Isshinryu caused him to create his text.  It is neither perfect nor complete. It is a valid attempt.  All of the books are, whether they are espousing one’s organizational history, one’s view of kata application, or an overview of Isshinryu.  None of them are perfect, but against the real backdrop of so many who enjoy their Isshirnyu, each one is a very real attempt at describing something which cannot be described.


If I take the time, I can take any of the books written apart, from different points of view. For what purpose. These individuals aren’t publishing on Isshinryu for money. Whatever they make doesn’t fall into the category of real profit.


A while ago I did some private translation of Mabuni Kenwa’s first book (From a French edition into English) explaining Sanchin and Seiunchin Kata, as he wrote it in 1933. While not interested in publishing this, I took the time to discuss with several publishers what it takes to generate and print a book. Essentially both informed me unless a text can sell over 5,000 copies, there is no profit to be made publishing a book, and in the martial arts world, the only books which make a profit are ALL about Bruce Lee.


Now of one wants to employ a private publisher and pay for the costs oneself, it might be a little different, but this basically told me the state of things.  The first volume of Angi Uzeu’s “Encyclopedia of Isshirnyu” (which I suspect was written more by Mr. Jennings) was not followed up with others.  In part I’m sure the new video tape business was cheaper to produce with less headaches.  There you can see and hear Angi without the printing costs.


My feelings are from a financial point of view, the authors could probably make more money in the stock market when its crashing than they would by publishing another Isshinryu book.


Frankly the real state of Isshinryu history is deplorable, and the future, unless somebody attempts deeper scholarship, is likely to remain the same with repetitions of the same old inaccuracies and hopes. Yes, Hope, for much is not based on looking at the real Okinawan or American experience, but rather a wish to explain what the author wants it to be.


I’ve seen rumors that Mr. Advincula is planning such a work. One would hope it happens.  I believe he would be the strongest source explaining Okinawan Isshinryu.  But rest assured, if he does so he will also have his detractors.


In any case, Mr. Cook, you’ve had your say.  David is away studying Chinese on Taiwan.  Another notable goal that may assist all of us far more in the future.


May you have a pleasant day.


Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu


Interesting postscript:

When I moved to Arizona back in 2016 I had to rid myself of many of my books.  The Isshinryu books I was not taking with me I know I left for my senior students. Having run accross this discussion brings that to mind. Having looked on Amazon I see there are no copies available, however the asking price for one is $199.99. Go figure. Perhaps they may get some value out of it too.

Chinto Kata and Tai Chi Chaun 6-1-2001

I’ve made another interesting discovery concerning Kata Chinto (my old friend) and Yang Tai Chi Chaun.


The segment shown in Nagamine Shoshin’s “The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do” Pics. 23 to 26, represent the same techniques utilized in Tai Chi’s Da Lu practice.  

I no longer have the ability to make screenprints from that book. however I found a Matsubishi video of their chinto kata and this is the motion of that section I am describing.


 

   


This was written prior to You Tube. Here is a Montaigue video

Tai Chi: Da-Lu V. 2 (The Great Repulse) Montaigue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5piEh2WSKI

 
Da Lu (Ta Lu and other spellings) is not part of the formal Yang Practice I’ve gotten from Ernest Rothrock.  But as I’ve come across it many times in Tai Chi literature, it has always remained a background topic of interest for myself.  Last week I stumbled across an article on Erle Montaigue’s web site and printed it out to review. [Disclaimer, on 05/30/01 Mr. Montaigue discountined the hundreds of free articles he posted at his site as it was costing him $1,600 a month for people to download them. Now he will sell you a CD of the entire group for $35.00, a most reasonable cost, but alas, to be a long time till I spring for it myself.]


Now I’ve worked the Lu (Pullback) of Tai Chi with great success in the past, and always recognized it as a potential application for this section of Chinto. On the other hand, Mr. Montague’s article and accompanying pictures (which will NOT scan in from my print out) clearly explained how Da Lu differed from my previous practice. In practice where I was stepping back ( as in Chinto Kata) in Da Lu you are side stepping, which removes you from an interior line of defense to an exterior line of defense,  which also  helps remove yourself from the fast linear attack of your opponent, into a much more advantageous position.


Yes Da Lu is slightly different in the footwork for several movements, but still covers the essential Chinto movement.


Allow me to try and describe this as a two person set.


Attacker 1 – Right foot forward with a right punch to the face (towards 6 o’clock)


Defender 1 – Left foot steps out to 9 o’clock as both hands rise in front (palms up) on the exterior of the punch. (minor variation on movement 23). Pay particular attention to body alignment to deflect the punch upwards and to the right almost effortless as you step back.


Defender 2 – Right foot circles to 9 o’clock (clockwise) as both hands turn over, right hand slides down to grab wrist and left hand presses down across the triceps tendon (paralleling movement 24). This is the pull back of Da Lu.  [to maximize the effectiveness utilize the knee release here).


Attacker 2 – To counter the Da Lu in part, step out with the left foot towards 6 o’clock, and drop your grabbed arm down towards the floor.  Your body continues to rotate clockwise.


Attacker 3 – Step to 9 o’clock with your right foot and deliver a shoulder strike towards the attackers center, likewise utilizing the knee release.


Defender 3 – Keeping your weight on the balls of both feet, use the knee release to rotate your body counter-clockwise to counter the shoulder strike.


- Now the sides reverse - -


Defender A1 – Step with your right foot towards 3 o’clock (toes facing 1 o’clock) and your right arm rises circling counter-clockwise to begin the heaven and earth throw. (paralleling movement 25 – 26)


Attacker D1 – Step with your left foot to 5 o’clock as both hands rise in front (palms up) on the exterior of the punch. (minor variation on movement 23). Pay particular attention to body alignment to deflect the punch upwards and to the right almost effortless as you step back.


Defender A2 – Right foot circles to 5 o’clock (clockwise) as both hands turn over, right hand slides down to grab wrist and left hand presses down across the triceps tendon (paralleling movement 24). This is the pull back of Da Lu.  [to maximize the effectiveness utilize the knee release here).


Attacker D2 – To counter the Da Lu in part, step out with the left foot towards 12 o’clock, and drop your grabbed arm down towards the floor.  Your body continues to rotate clockwise.


Attacker D3 – Step to 5 o’clock with your right foot and deliver a shoulder strike towards the attackers center, likewise utilizing the knee release.


Defender A3 – Keeping your weight on the balls of both feet, use the knee release to rotate your body counter-clockwise to counter the shoulder strike.


- Sides reverse and continue - -


While not 100% Da Lu, this becomes a very interesting exercise.


You get to re-enforce correct alignment, use of the knee release offensively, defensively and for rotational counter,  you can replace the shoulder strike with an elbow strike/shoulder strike, and you can replace the heaven and earth throw, with an outer wrist lock to provide variety in the movement too.


Start slowly and have the partners work with each other, trying to feel and neutralize the attacks. As the skill increases work to increase the speed, always trying to keep alignment and balance centered.


Enjoy,

Victor

Several other Da Lu tai chi videos which demonstrate what I am describing.

Da Lu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Eny2KJOOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGZOoINaTUQ

Another attempt to explain this convergence between Chinto and Tai Chi.


https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/search?q=Da+Lu



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Closing Seisan Kata 7-7-2001

A recent discussion on one of the Isshinryu discussion groups provided the basis for todays Bunkai Work.

 

Closing Seisan Kata, as I was taught it, you step back with the right foot into a left “T” stance (only the toes touching on the left foot).  Both hand (open) palm  push out to the sides, then collapse the arms placing the open hands (fingers down) facing the front along side each hip.  The left heel is then brought down to the floor and the left palm (fingers down) presses out toward the centerline as the right palm (fingers up) presses out across the left wrist.  


The discussion was hinging on some individuals feeling sliding the left foot over into Sanchin stance made for a stronger stance for the final arm cross application.  This was not how Shimabuku Tatsuo taught it, but a personal change of several instructors.  It is easy to understand why a change such as this can be made. One of my instructors is of the believe you should never change the original kata, but in the application any variation needed is reasonable and correct.  Always something to consider.

 

The standard beginning application of this closing movement of Seisan Kata is that this is being done to twist a foot during a side kick attack. The left palm presses the opponents side kick toes downward, while the right palm presses into and raises  the opponents attacking side kick heel. The end result is that this is to twist the opponents leg over and drop them.


Frankly I find this fine in theory, but very difficult to sell against a committed kicker (Bill Wallace Superfoot comes to mind).

Another application I was taught in the beginning is that the preceding punch into the opponents stomach causes them to bend over. Then I grab the side of the opponents head/hair/ears?, pull them forward and then rapidly turn their neck over either as a takedown or a neck break.

             

I find this somewhat more agreeable, except I’m normally not into neck breaking as an application.


So today I took a look at this from the perspective of somebody is quickly reaching out to grab your shoulders or neck, in this case with their right foot forward.


The right foot quickly steps back into the left “T” stance as both hand come up and press outward deflecting the attack to the sides.


Then draw the hands back to the hips and you press off of the back foot to step outside and behind their lead right foot. As you place your left foot down, the toes are turned in (similar to Sanchin) hooking your foot behind their lead foot ankle.


Simultaneously your left hand reaches behind their right kidney while your right palm presses into their neck (from front towards the back) at the carotid sinus on the neck.


With very little pressure your left hand presses into their kidney while your right hand presses into and behind their neck.  You will find that you have supplanted their centerline with your inward presses and rotate them to the ground with ease.


Always a caution. Do not use excessive force in practice with a partner against the Carotid Sinus. This ties into the previous work I’ve written about using the neck.  Only a gentle pressure will displace them, and you run very little risk of injuring them as you learn to execute the technique.  


I’m currently working on the issue of neck control and pressure attacks there in greater detail, with the assistance of Dr. Harper.  Eventually I believe I will have something interesting to post on this.


Now this same application can be found several other places in the standard Isshirnyu kata.  If you refer to Norbert Donnally’s  site for the following kata sections, you should be able to work out how I can use these movements for the same application I’ve described above. I can no longer find this site.


For Seisan        Movements 69 and 70

For Wansu        Movements 13 and 14

For Kusanku Kata    Movement 69


Of course in my version of Kusanku Kata instead of stepping out with the right on movement 69, you step out with the left, but the hands are in the same position of right on top and left on the bottom.


For Sanchin kata    Movements 54 and 55


Finally, in my search to keep this list alive and everyone working hard, I found an interesting application from the work of Mr. Joe Swift. I’m offering it as the Bunkai Research Quiz for July 2001.


Joe Swift writes about Mizuho Mutsu, author of Karate Kempo in 1933, in the Shotokan Research Journal SRSI Volume 2.01     No longer available  the article is “Wisdom from the Past IV”. Plug here: The older issues are currently available free, although future issues require subscription. This is a journal which has great promise.


The technique he picks from Mutsu’s book can be found as an application of Chinto Kata, reference
Norbert Donnally  Chinto Kata    Movements 50 to 53.


See if you can work out how they are parallel movements.


Well it’s been a slow day so far…….. Hope you find this interesting.


Victor


Postscript:


I had originally written this to 2001 for my new discussion group Pleasant Isshinryu. This article came from my 1988 research into the uses of Seisan kata technique.


When I originally was taught Isshinryu under Tom Lewis' and Charles Murray's tutelege, the use of kata techniaue was rarely mentioned.

 
Then when I was on my own in 1979 onward and then had the experience with 17 instructors in many, many systems.  I discovered many of them were taught their systems without the study of kata technique usage. Only Tristan Sutrisno shared how he taught kata "bunkai (uniquely defined by him which no one else knew)". And those applications had very little to do with the actual kata technique (a very different paradigm of what 'bunkai' was to be known as.


Later beginning in 1987 I began to work out my own answers as to what kata technique might be used for. Seisan was my first kata technique applications study. These notes came from those studies.


Again later I first met Sherman Harrill and for the next decade learned ever so much about what kata technique could be used for. But Sherman was alive at that time (2001) and I was not sharing what he  was doing. Hence my use of that which I developed, after all it worked too.

Finally going back go my original Sherman Harrill notes on the usage of Seisan kata's ending.

   Seisan Kata – Ending “X” Block

 Attacker RFF Right Punch
Shifting from outside left, inner palm parry, then right inner palm strike to the abdomen

This ‘X’ block can also be executed against a kick.. various variations.

Mr. Harrill also talks about there being a hidden ‘X’ block (performed extremely fast by Master Shimabuku) in the ending section.  [Victor Smith analysis, I believe that this may be where both hands rise to press out this could be seen as a hidden ‘X’ block.]


                                                                                                                                 

Dim Mak Point Strike Applications from the Taijiquan Forms. - one

 

Erle Montaigue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgtsr_KomDs
 

Opening:


Raise palms so that the wrists attack into both of the opponent's inside wrists to attack to Neigwan bringing the force in towards you. Then, when this has weakened him, pull him down onto your knee into GB 24 or LIV 14.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3jrlFPcIPg

Push Left:


Shake to block his oncoming attack to attack with left palm to GB 1 (lateral to the corner of the eye and just up a tad or SI 19 (on the outside of the ear just where that little protrusion is.) Must be struck in a going towards the face direction and using the tips of the fingers. Causes dizziness and fainting on a small scale but will kill if great power is used.


If SI is used then we squeeze the little finger to heal if only light and dizziness is felt but if harder then there is no cure.


More:
Block his oncoming right attack with left palm pushing upward on the outside of his arm as you right palm comes underneath and step to your left. Attack his TW 17 just behind the ear with a towards you strike, this is a killing point as there is no cure!


MORE:
Block with left P'eng as your right palm immediately comes over it to take over, now the right palm swings his arm greatly over to your right as your left palm attacks to ST 9. If he is only knocked out, then lay him in feotal position and squeeze the back of his neck on GB 20 just under two base skull bones. If done too hard then the heart stops so CPR is necessary.


MORE:
Block from small san-sau, attack to the ST 9 again while the other palm attacks the inside of the wrist in a towards you way to upset his seat of power. 

Note: The Old Yang Style Tai Ch form from the videos was not exactly the Yang Long Fist form I had studied. The photos shown were screen prints from the Montague Yang form in the attached videos. I have done my best to select these screen prints to attempt to match Montague's Tai Chi Dim Mak descriptions.

I do feel this text shows what Montague was getting to in his books on Dim Mak theory, of course attached to his Meridian Texts.

When I looked into Dim Mak

 

Back about 1977 when I was studying Tang Soo Do, one day after class I stopped into an old book store below where my classes were held. Looking through the old martial arts books I found a small one (literally almost a comic book) on PaQua, the Chinese Martial Art. It was written in Chinese and showed applications for PaQua movements. I did not realize what it was but I bought it anyway. Many years later I realized it was showing a number of Dim Mak applications for PaQua.

Roll forward to the mid-1980s and the karaate magazines were describing the technique of Oyata Sensei. Then  George Dillman 'borrowed' a lot of stuff from Oyata eventually to put his own spin on it to make it a money building empire on its own.    He even borrowed Oyata's terminology and further went into the use of meridians to explain his pressure point striking.

Now I was not looking to get with Dillman, having more than enough of my own varied studies.  For example I already had many 'bunkai' studies with Tristan Sutrisno, which no one not trained by him had any idea of what his technique usage would be. They were and are that unique.

But I literally bought all the magazines and books coming out on Pressure Point striking, and of course I wondered if there was something there.  In my Isshinryu and in all the arts I had studied no one ever talked about using the meridians for pressure point strikes.

So I read more and more, eventually going into the books appearing on Dim Mak and Meridian Theory. It was something to read, but I had no way of verifying if it made sense nor a desire to Ko individuals with pressure point strikes.

Over time the most exhaustive literature was by Erle Montague, He was also running a publishing empire, clinics and more Eventually I acquired his 2 volume Encyclopedia of Dim Mak. One volume being the use of the Major Meridians and one volume on the use of the Minor Meridians.

It was the mosy exhaustive work on Chinese Meridian Theory I had seen. Far exceeding what George Dillman was selling. Later I bought the new edition with the two volumes combined into one book.

Truthfully, as detailed as they were, I was never able to get into whether the Dim Mak striking was worthy. Those books for decades just sat on my bookshelf looking pretty

Then the internet happened and Dim Mak and pressure point striking exploded. There were tons being shared.

In the case of Montague he went into Dim Mak for Tai Chi as well as other related martial topics. Eventually oodles of his VHS tapes were being shared on You Tube.

Here are a selection of his stuff, there are many, many more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1U0UkC6kdg

 

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GRcDk7LPio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSORaFoWsMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1KO0OQ9G54&list=PL9E34C46E70B63637
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aHOsQeO3xw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyc-7PP1vUk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE9dG7ulvwc

Eventually when I moved to Arizona that entire selection of books I discarded.

I plan to eventually share a bit of his Tai Chi Dim Mak literature I saved from the internet.

 

 

Several of my previous posts on pressure points:

https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-question-of-pressure-point-striking.html

https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2024/07/i-acidently-discovered-light-touch-ko.html

The Growing Irrelevancy of “Rank” - an opinion to consider

 https://nagarate.blogspot.com/2010/
Tuite Jutsu (Personal training/teaching methodologies in Te)

This “Blog” will discuss various techniques (from my own “point of view”), training methodologies, and applications used and taught by myself in the art of “Te”. It will often focus upon the instructed art of “Tuite”, as taught to me by Taika Seiyu Oyata.
 

Friday, December 17, 2010

The Growing Irrelevancy of “Rank”

 
 When I first began learning a martial art, my short-term goal was earning my next kyu rank. Completing those minor achievements provided me with the motivation to drag my ass to each successive class.
    
 There were certain aspects of those classes which I enjoyed, and some that I dreaded. The amount of (actual) knowledge that I acquired with those rankings was debatable (at best). Though at the time, I thought I was (really) “learning” what was necessary to achieve what I believed that I was participating in the class to become proficient at (I.E. how to “protect myself”, though a more accurate description would be preventing someone else from “kicking my ass”).
     
 It took me approximately 4 years to earn that Yudansha rank. I spent the following 4 years teaching “that” system of karate, and “thought” that I was competent in it's execution. During that “stint”, I was introduced to Taika, and was promptly convinced (albeit “begrudgingly”) that I had been wasting my time with what I had been doing.
      
 After testing under Taika for a Yudansha ranking in “his” system, I began teaching his methods of technique application. Even though I was teaching his methods, “I” was (still) discarding my previous training (habits?). It took me about 10 years to (completely) discard them, much of which dealt with the “sparring” aspect of training (and it's irrelevancy to what I was now teaching).
     
 Once I had (finally) abandoned those previous “habits”, my own training (and teaching) took a much more productive turn. During (all) that time, (and for the next 20 years) “Rank” (at least the “testing” aspect) never really entered into my thoughts as being “relevant” to my own training. When I attended any “training” with Taika (at his Yudansha classes, or at a seminar), every one in attendance (regardless of “rank”) worked on the same techniques.

With that being my history of training, I see, read, and encounter individuals who hold (supposed) “high” dan rankings, often in various systems.
    
 It's gotten to the point that when someone “boasts” about having (some) “high” ranking, I (immediately) loose interest in what-ever they have to say. If/when I choose to engage an any dialog with them, I usually discover that they are under 30, have “trained” in multiple systems, and (usually) advocate what-ever the latest “trend” happens to be.
     
 Although I don't (necessarily) agree with many of the so-called “traditional” method's that are commonly utilized, there are numerous one's that I do. My own #1 “disagreement” is with “minors” being awarded “black belts”. It's not that I believe that they aren't capable of “doing” the physical requirements, but more that they are incapable of answering the (numerous) questions that will come from student's (I.E. “be” an instructor).
     
 They lack the experience (of “life” knowledge) to be able to answer those questions competently. Having the (physical) ability to perform the physical aspects of a system's requirements, is (or should be) only 40% of what an instructor teaches student's (unless your essentially running a “black belt mill”). Shodan, really only means that you have learned the “basic” motions (of the system). It's only after attaining that rank, that you can commit the time to learning application of what has been learned.
     
 The fact that there “are no standards” (for awarding any Yudansha rank), of course makes this an “irrelevant” point for most people. Every system/school sets “it's own” standards, and because of that (and the pursuit of “cash”) schools will do what is necessary to generate that “money flow” in order to stay open, and retain students. I'm only aware of a couple of schools that the owner/instructor has a “real” job.
    
 More often than not, those schools that the owner doesn't have a “real” job, will offer some “gimmick”, like “cardio” karate classes (?) and such. They're attempting to be a “fitness” gym. Sorry, I don't buy it. If your wanting to become more physically “fit”, GO TO A FITNESS GYM. “They” (generally) have trained individuals that know (much more effective) manners of training your body to become more physically “fit”. Training in a martial art might be considered a good “supplemental” (physical) training method, but certainly shouldn't be considered a main one. (Sorry, I got side-tracked, LOL).
   
 With the general “devaluation” of Yudansha ranking, there has been a growing presence of (so-called) “experts”. At one time, “rank” could be used as a consideration for training with someone. Even in my (own) late “teens”, early twenty's, instructor's with a San dan ranking were considered “high” ranking. Now, if you don't have a Go Dan rank(or higher), you ain't considered shit. If/when I (actually do) “query” these “higher ranking” person's, I commonly find that they hold no more knowledge than most “Shodan” (or even higher “kyu” ranked students).
      
 When I was younger, I would attend seminars offered by numerous styles/systems/individuals, who purported to “offer” (for a price) some form of knowledge/information. Most often, these amounted to “sparring” tips (despite what was advertised). When (actual) “technique” was demonstrated/taught, I was always disappointed with what was shown. At the very least, I learned how “Not” to teach a seminar. These individuals also (advertised that they) held some “high”ranking (in what-ever style) yet were (IMO) completely incompetent as “instructors”. Granted, that was then, this is now, I'm just not seeing much difference.
    
 As far as “any” Dan rank goes, the only “value” is in regards to one's self. That ranking will (generally) only be acknowledged within your own (little) “system”. I've had people “flaunt” their certificate(s) around, as if they were “proof” of their abilities/knowledge. I'm more than capable of “brushing one up” (a “certificate) to “claim” anything you’d like upon it, but that would hardly offer any “proof” of ability (and it would be just as “valid” as any that you may have). There are no standards for certification. They are presented by an individual instructor/organization, and the only “value” is in regards to that instructor and/or (sometimes) system. Which (of course, LOL) is “how” the vast majority of these (so-called) high-ranking individual's attained their ranking, they did it themselves.
     
 (Apparently) as long as your starting your own “new” organization, “you” need to be the highest ranking individual within that system (and are never to be surpassed). Is it just me, or doesn't that (automatically) “limit” the level of knowledge attainable by each successive student of that instructor? (gradually dropping that level to the knowledge of the standard Shodan?).
       
 It was (usually) when individual's “surpassed” the level of their instructor's, that they began their own “system”. But now, it's whenever someone want's to start making (more) money for themselves, regardless of their own knowledge level (either real, or presumed). Occasionally, individual's would develop “their own” method/way of doing things, but from my own observations, I've only seen about 4 or 5 “different” methodology's (in all) actually being employed.
      
 I realize that it has it's own problems, but at least the organizations in Okinawa consisted of a number of (equally) ranked individual's (who would then rate a student as being an “equal”).

In my own “perfect little world” (I.E. when “I” become “emperor of the world”, LOL), the rank of “Shodan” would be limited to person's over the age of 18 (only since that's the age someone is “considered” to be legally responsible for their actions), “Dan” ranking would be limited to Godan(?) with each level restricted by age, and/or # of years within a (single) system (to “me”, multi-system ranking amounts to “Jack-off of many, and master of none”).
 
 “Dan” testing, being done by (only) multiple individual's (with “3” or more individuals doing the examination). No use of “Black belts” (which is already done within RyuTe, much to my own pleasure) along with any elaborate adornment (“multicolored” gi's, patches, belts etc. these are pointless, if not “belittling” to other student's). Restriction of being considered an “Instructor” to 3rd Dan, face it, the average “Shodan” is not capable of being an “instructor”. When I've mentioned these “personal preferences” to individual's, I've usually received numerous complaints/disagreements (and usually because someone's “authority position” would be “compromised”, LOL).
     
 Now most of my complaints are in regards to what “I” am teaching (“self-protection”). For systems that focus on the “sport” aspect of martial arts, none of this would make any difference. That instruction is only focused on individual's that are interested in the competition form of “karate”. I share none of that interest. I tend to view “sport” karate, as being similar to WWF wrestling, where “everybody” seems to be some form of “champion/master” (and more often than not, is neither).
     
 Of course it isn't a “perfect world”(much less any version of “my own”), so none of my preferences will probably ever come to fruition.