Kata Saifa

 

This captures the spirit of Kata Saifa.

Opening Seisan Kata the ShoDan study

Opening Seisan Kata 101.1 – a minor study in application potential

First Post a word from our sponsor

I thought it might be useful to try and show all the application potential I

find and teach for Seisan Kata’s opening section, as an expansion of earlier

efforts. Among the many reasons  my son is beginning this study,I’d also like to

record this for my instructors future efforts, and I’d like to share my thoughts

with my friends, too.

But starting to define them I both realized how much was there, almost an

unlimited number of potential to explore, and if I could document them I also

realized nobody would ever be able to use them.

Then I remembered words from Harrill Sensei, “The kata applications I share

aren’t important, it’s the principles underneath them which are important.”

Then it came to me, I should listen to Sherm’s words. So instead of focusing on

describing all of the potential applications I can do, I’m going to focus on the

principles underneath my application study and accompany them with some

examples. In turn they are where I yield my application study.

It also strikes me that trying to post everything I see at one time will lead to a babble complex, so I’m going to do this one piece at a time, and hope it leads to questions, thoughts, disagreement and perhaps even agreement on occasion.

Application Potential instead of Bunkai

I remember well a time when kata was just kata, almost everywhere, and a desire

to see if they were something else was a long, hard journey of self study.  In

time other study began to point out interesting answers used by other systems,

but I always returned to my own belief the kata technique ought to be used to

their full potential just as they stand.

Along that path a word came into public usage. The word was ‘Bunkai’, and the

most common usage was this was how the instructor would teach the applications

of the kata technique, their ‘bunkai’.

Words take a life of their own.  The use of ‘bunkai’ came from the developing

Japanese forms of karate. It is a specialized term within some of that

community, not a universal understanding for all Japanese. Outside of the

martial arts community that used it the average Japanese would use the term  as

the car mechanic would bunkai the car, take it apart, to locate the problem.

Really a very different use of the word, where in karate perhaps the kata is

bunkai’d to explain the applications.

But the use of ‘bunkai’ to explain how kata application was taught was not

enough. Other additional terms such as ‘oya bunkai’ arose to explain the

alternate applications, etc. to develop a more technical explanation of what was

being taught. So things became more structured as abstraction to discuss the

actual events, and categorize them.

I spent quite a while on a different sort of ‘bunkai’ one more like the concept

of hidden hand ‘kakushite’ in a tradition where the dan studied thousands of

applications tied into kata sections similar to mnemonic devices to remember and

teach them. But this ‘bunkai‘ did not use the kata techniques directly. Yet did

accurately describe another abstraction, or map to lay on top of the process of

developing a students applications.

I am not comfortable with the use of ‘bunkai’ to really understand karate. 

Having an instructor define answers is fine, and if that’s all one chooses to do

that is fine too. But I look to a freer hand.

On Okinawa, pre 1900 there was extremely little technical vocabulary to define

karate. There was no ‘bunkai’ you just experienced, first hand, your

instructor’s answers, and for a wide variety of reasons, it is reported many

instructors rarely taught application use until very long in the arts study. And

I’m sure there are those who used it very early for the student too. Just

because there are stories, one should never assume those stories explain the

full picture.

Dan Smith (Seibukan) just made the observation on the cyberdojo, from a question

about the use of the term ‘kakushite’ that I feel ties into this topic.  “The

Okinawans try not to emphasis specific applications as it limits the possible

responses or utilization of techniques. Tijikun means demonstrating what the

hand is doing and is teaching method utilized by Okinawans to emphasize the

correctness of technique rather than the specific application.”

Regardless of what anyone else does or taught, when we perform kata all of its

techniques represent a potential that any of us ought to be able to tap into.

This Application Potential does not have limits drawn around it.  If you work

and find a method of using the technique that you were not shown and in turn you

can successfully drop an opponent with it, there is no right or wrong answer.

There is simply potential realized.

When I began to look at kata technique this is what struck me, how can it

actually be used, and my own studies began to find out what did work. Of course

there are layers to this study, and in turn the more I looked the more I was

finding.

Then serendipity let me experience Harrill Sensei, and an entire universe beyond

my initial understanding was there. For he would take a movement sequence (as he

defined it) and explore it’s potential, in greater and greater depth, literally

hours and hours on one movement.

Though not his student, he pointed in large directions that I continue to follow

with my own efforts as well as what he shared.

But application potential is not the end, it is but a beginning step, with

infinite answers. After studying the potential, then the work comes learning how

to sell that potential against stronger and stronger attacks, how to learn how

to choose between the potential answers for a best situational response, and

acceptance not to limit the answers to keep one un-readable by an opponent,

forever.

* * * *

Opening Seisan Kata 101.2 – The Kata Section Defined

When I think of Isshinryu in my soul, it is where I began on the first day. Yes I did begin with the study of the charts, but I also began with the study of Seisan Kata.

Seisan Kata’s opening section links so many different topics. Depending on how you received the charts, it’s potential is there. You can find its soul within Sanchin and within SunNuSu. Variations on a core theme, a core Seisan-ness.

And in total, Almost variations within the Seisan Theme (Tou’on Ryu, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Ueichi Ryu and on) share some similarity in the opening section.

But the potential is not universal. A school nearby does a variation of the Seibukan Seisan.  Their use of stepping out in a block in horse stance and then shifting into their front stance with the punch is not one I personally believe in, and in turn many of the Isshinryu potentials are not there, replaced by other ones.

So limiting myself to Isshinryu, realizing there are variations on the theme, still feel many will understand these section definitions, for the kata.

AS I perform Seisan the section I am looking at would begin:

1.         Cross Hands (right hand on top)

2.         Left Foot Forward Left Side block as Right Hand Chambers

3.         Right Reverse punch as Left Hand Chambers

4.         Right Foot Forward Left Reverse punch as Right Hand Chambers

5.         Left Foot Forward Right Reverse punch as Left Hand Chambers

I realize some may not cross the hands (chambering the right hand and just stepping forward with a left outside block) which may change some of your options. 

Others may follow the reverse punch with an outside block with the same hand, or just emphasize the punching hand’s retraction after the strike so much it is almost identical with a block.

I suspect the most common explanation for the first side block and reverse punch is the attacker is punching with their right hand, you step forward, block/parry the punch aside and punch them in their solar plexus.  (Which by the way is one of the variations I will be discussing, as will its obvious follow-up, continue to step forward and keep striking (3 times) into the attacker).

But Shimabuku Sensei saw a different answer (from the Harrill Sensei notes on the self defense techniques in the Pleasant Isshinryu files section from 2002) 1.a. Left hand holds right wrist. From Seisan, pull the hand back to the release position and strike to the solar plexus.

Opening Seisan Kata 101.3 – Some Basic Principles Underlying the Discussion Defined

 

I think it’s a good idea to frame several tools I’m going to be using in this discussion up front. If this boors you feel free to skip reading the rest.

But as I continue along my way, they’re going to be referenced and more principles specific to certain types of applications, will be added.

On conclusion I think I’ll wrap all the principles behind the techniques together in an appendix.

Let’s see if Sherm knows what he was talking about (and I’m sincerely betting he does).

Kata I’m defining as a relatively fixed tool (hey I’m polite) develop certain energy potential, and application potential tries to use as much of that energy as possible, as exactly as possible, for greatest results.

A technique application may be Offensive in nature, Defensive in nature, or Counter Offensive. But as in combat all plans are thrown aside when the enemy is joined (borrowed that line of course from many movies – last seen in Tom Cruise’s Last Samuari) My definitions of course are just an arbitrary analysis of potential.

Offensive – when I choose to use a sequence to directly attack the opponent (frequently from the side or the rear).

Defensive – They strike first and I defend against their attack to stop it.

Counter-Offensive – They’ve attacked and I survive and counter-attack. The simplest answer is I’ve been stuck in their grab and yank and I respond.

The manner of Stepping is not defined by the kata.

The concept of application potential does not follow 100% kata technique, but allows a bit of warp to consider all the techniques potential. Most times I start with identical stepping as in the kata, but at times when I find the shape of an attack does not make it harmonious I’ll step differently. Principles behind those choices will come at that time.

The manner of Stepping is either Straight or Curved.  Now there’s a line that should be included in the Code of Karate, IMO  I must be clear I’m a solid crescent step guy. That’s how I was trained to execute the system, it’s how I teach the system (getting very heavy on my students (advanced too) cases when they don’t use it), and I believe it represents one of my core values behind Isshinryu energy development.

But being a rational individual I fully understand very similar power potential (perhaps the same) exists with the straight style of stepping. It’s just not what I do and if I go into my normal chant on stepping execution, feel free to tune me out. Course I’m right <Grin>

Behind the crescent step. There are many types of energy development in our body all of which combine in our execution. What I really like about the crescent step is how we pull our lower body into our centerline and then can explode from that centerline into our opponent, increasing the energy of our strike.

The specific timing I strive for is 2/3rds of the step is drawing into the centerline and 1/3^rd of the step to explode out.

There are subsidiary benefits, such as allowing you to change your mind ½ the way in your step and back up from the centerline using replacement stepping, if the opponents coming in faster than you wish. (thanks to Rich Kordel for suggesting that to me years ago).  So you get to compress some of your energy and explode it into your attacker, combining with the other energies from your body.

Description Shorthand

I tend to use a short hand I developed long ago to write less.

RFF = Right Foot Forward

LFF = Left Foot Forward

RFB = Right Foot Back

LFB = Left Foot Back

RP = Right Punch

LP = Left Punch

And so forth.

Opening Seisan Kata 101.4.1 – Crossing Hands

Crossing Hands applications represent variances in the manner in which the ‘X’ is formed for its application potential.

I expect many did not think I’d start here.

In fact I would not have started here but for the fact Sherman Harrill began the first clinic I attended with this section of Seisan Kata.

But in this post I’m not beginning with what I understand of Sherman’s answer. Instead an answer from my studies.

The situation – you have somebody on top of you, say shouting in a crowded place and you read their eyes, and reddening face and realize they’re ready to grab or strike you.  Your hands are relatively down at your sides, and your back is against the wall, bar or people behind you so you can’t move forwards or backwards.

The response – You release you knees, allowing your center to drop and your two fists strike up, forming the ‘X’, with the right fist on top.

You strike with the vertical ridge of knuckles into the solar plexus. In fact as your weight drops from the knee release, your fist strikes up, slamming into their solar plexus with great power gives you an opening for Plan B, C and/or D.

Principles involved:

Knee Release 1.a. – I owe Joe Swift to getting my mind on this, he translated material on this from a book published in Japan, and later released in English. I can’t remember the name right now, though I know Len’s referenced it several times.

Essentially you cannot move unless you release your knees continually. The knee release coupled with allowing the bodies weight to drop into a technique allows that dropping weight to be released in other power, such as a strike.

You can prove this readily. Take a partner (perhaps one you don’t feel to friendly towards on that day) and try the rising crossed hands strike into their solar plexus without releasing your knees. Then do the same with the knee release and see which gives you a bigger bounce, and which causes their eyes to bulge out more. Then form your own conclusions, not my word.

This is just one example, there are others we will be using later. This is a principle with a lot to offer in application potential.

Principle of Alignment Theory – Here’s another difficult one to explain. It’s easy to show in person and it can be done with different description maps (words) to explain the same idea.

In this technique it’s pretty simple. When you cross the hands your power increases (you an also prove this to yourself). You aren’t slamming the lower left hand their tight, just rising, not necessarily supporting the right. But as long as the left rises and touches the right it’s more powerful.

The simple reason for this is because when the wrists touch, the other side of the body is drawn forward, keeping it in better alignment for more power.

If the human body is not aligned correctly for technique (which can vary depending on how the technique is being used for energy release) it is less powerful.

If you are perfect, you can make the rising right hit the solar plexus correctly and still get the bang for your buck, but when your hands touch you won’t make a mistake, your entire body is engaged properly.

Oooops – Addendum

Cheng Man-Ch’ing’s - Advanced Tai Chi Form Instructions.

As a practitioner of Yang Long Fist Tai Chi Chaun, at the forms end there is a section called ‘Step up and Form Seven Stars’ that employs an identical hand formation, and the two hands rise up to face height but passes the solar plexus along the way.

Recently I was looking at Cheng Man-Ch’ing’s book and was struck with his description of the application of this technique.

Page 95, “The two wrists intersect and support each other as they attack the opponents solar plexus.  This blow is extremely devastating.  Its victims re unlikely to escape serious danger. Those who use it should not do so lightly.”

I’m not certain I would endorse his analysis of the medical ramifications of the strike, but it can pack a wallop. Yes my son doesn’t like me striking him this way, nor in many other ways either <G>.

This is the first of many other parallels I will try to show as this technique analysis continues.

Opening Seisan Kata 101.4.2 – Crossing Hands – Tribute to Harrill Sensei

When I met Harrill Sensei for the first time, and it was when he was covering maybe 150 applications a clinic, a very stiff pace, he explored a great many different potentials within the Crossing Hands of Seisan Kata.

This section highlights some of the strongest lessons I learned from his teachings.

His use of the crossing hands and the following side block and reverse punch really shows how much he could look beyond the basic appearance of a technique.

What he did was open up the act of the crossing hands by taking its components, looking how different timing and entry into the cross hands would yield different potential.

This crossing hands was practiced against a straight punch, but I really think of it more as a grab defensive counter.

The situation – Your opponent reaches out with their right hand.

Your response - Staying in stance you roll your center line to the left. As you do that, your left arm rolls across their arm, towards your center and down. And with that movement your center line rolls back to the right. This section has been a double rolling of the hips.

[Variable, I also like to do this by reaching out with my left alongside their reaching arm, and then drawing it back as I roll their arm to my centerline and down. This is using the arm as an earlier intercept and allows you greater contact to control their limb incoming.]

As my left arm presses their arm down, my right arm now rolls in and up, striking their arm just behind the elbow, forcing their arm to bend. The ‘Cross’ is formed by the cross strike, as your right arm goes left it crosses the plane of your left arm pressing in and down. The ‘X’ is formed with their arm in-between, even if your two arms are not touching. As you’re doing this

When their arm bends at the elbow, begin the act of chambering your right, drawing your thumb back across their inner elbow, as you do that your left arm rolls up underneath and behind their arm, to a side block type of arm/elbow lock on their arm. Your right continues to chamber as normal.

You have also been rolling your centerline back to the left during the ‘X’ and Side Block process. This centering of your body centerline on the working aspect of a block/lock is another aspect of alignment theory, to create a stronger technique with less ‘arm strength’ instead using the entire body more efficiently.

At this point you press your left arm down across their arm to the right, and your body centerline rolls back to the right. This forces them down in an elbow lock.

You complete the technique with a reverse punch to the throat, behind the ear, the neck at the carotid sinus, or other target of choice.

You can even use an add-on here, and instead of a straight punch to the neck, add on a right hook punch into the tip of their shoulder for the pain it offers.

This is a very useful locking or projection technique, depending on angle of entry, and the manner in which the kata energy is expressed in the execution. Just by making the lock and roll down more extreme, it becomes a projection, throwing the individual on their head.

When they use their left -

But this does not end here, because of another principle, the unlocking principle.

What if they grab at you with their left hand instead of their right. You don’t have to root for a more specific technique, instead just apply the technique the same way against their left grabbing arm.

You will discover it is a slightly different lock, more a bent arm drag down, but it works just as effectively.

This rather unique category of karate technique usage makes me thing of how the Chinese Arts contain Chin-Na, or locking techniques.

In fact I’ve been looking through my Chin-Na collection and I don’t find this lock present, the most I can do is find the bent arm elbow lock-down ending, but not the same entry.  But the Chinese Chin-Na texts point out they do not contain everything, just the more common locks.

While similar to Chin-Na there is a difference, most of the chin-na I’ve seen (such as in Northern Eagle Claw) incorporate grabs with the locks to make the pain more intense and the lock stronger.

This set of applications does not do this.

In general I approach use of locks the same way. Unless you’re contesting against someone on a one to one basis, grabbing the arm you’re trying to lock ties that hand up, and if you’re attacked by somebody else the same time, that grabbing hand just can’t be released enough.

On the whole I teach to use the rolling center into the lock entry and the pressure of arm against arm to work the opponent into the lock. If another attacks, you just have to roll your pressure away from the lock to free the arms up for the second opponent.

Instructors note – too often people feel more comfortable using a grab. It sometimes takes considerable work to keep everyone on mission, but the grab-less locks using your full body centering, and arm pressure to make the lock work with correct practice.

Principle of Fractal Analysis

Fractal analysis is a term I borrowed from a BaGua-zhang discussion that I like because I feel it really describes what Harrill Sensei was doing.  Fractals are a mathematical study where you bore down into smaller components of a process, and then deeper still, still yielding new study. [I’m not a mathematician and this is the closest I can wrap words around a very interesting very, very complex mathematics study.]

What I see as fractal analysis is taking components of a kata technique and using them as complete techniques itself. The deeper your bore, the more useful material is uncovered.

The Unlocking Principle

I had worked out the theory behind the unlocking principle long before I had met Harrill Sensei, and was using it in my own studies, but he made it sing.

In its simplest statement, look at a technique from a right attack, from a left attack, while turning, or from rear entry.

The technique in the kata, is not limited to what appears before you as for its application potential.

The principle of the Add-on

Depending on the situation, there are often other endings that provide great effect too. There are no rules in application potential that say you cannot use the application to its fullness and then add something on for greater effect, obtaining synergy from the combination of techniques.

Where add-on’s are theoretically infinite, I am going to just focus on a few of the more logical ones in my experience for this level of study.

Spiraling Energy

One way to look at this lock is that the left hand in spiraling in during its movement till it completes the spiral by rolling the opponent down.

Opening Seisan Kata 101.4.3 – Crossing Hands the Director’s Cut

Here we come to the end of looking at the use of the opening crossing hands in Seisan Kata.  But this isn’t the least, rather one of the more important application potentials to study in the kata, the way I would keep score (and I normally don’t weight anything better or worse than the next).

The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself.

This usage of Kata Seisan’s opening crossing hands and side block then reverse punch also came from that first clinic I attended with Harrill Sensei.

The situation – Your opponent strikes out with their right hand.

Your response -           As their arm comes out, you step forward (for myself I normally chose to step forward with my right foot. [Interior Line of Defense.] My right hand strikes across my body into their arm, with a vertical ridge of knuckles. At the same time my left vertical hand strikes into their right oblique muscle, several inches below their right lower rib.

This simultaneous strike both deflects their arm and strikes them at a point where they really are not ready to receive a strike. Their focus is on their arm reaching out to touch you, not on receiving impact into a sensitive area.

Ernie Rothrock tells me this is one of the reasons the Chinese arts he studied chamber low, so the turning hand can be drawn back to protect that area, the returning chamber in effect wedging an attack away while it is being drawn back.

You can clearly see a relative comparison to Wansu kata parry/strike technique in this application.

But if really nailing someone when they’re not expecting it is enough a whole lot of other choices are open.

Next simultaneously chamber your right hand and perform an outside block with the left. Then complete the section with a strike into their solar plexus.

But we’re not finished with this by far.

The principle of the Chambering Hand

I think the thing that impressed me most about this technique was how the chambering hand could become a slashing plane of force. With the chambering hand you can:

  Return the chambering hand as a slash across the ribs.

  Return the chambering hand as a slash across the face.

  Return the chambering hand as a returning slash to drive a 2^nd punch aside. This is where the attacker was performing a grab and punch.

When this sequence is used with the above sequence, it literally becomes ‘Hit ‘em once, hit ‘em twice and hit ‘em once again.’

I can even see how you might want to make a punch miss just to hit them with a really punishing return slice, if you really don’t like the opponent.

Now we return to a friend, The return of the Unlocking Principle.

The Attack - Now the attacker steps forth with their left and strikes with their left hand.

The Response – Perform the identical defense against the left grab/strike as you would with the right.

You strike across with your right as your left punch strikes into their left oblique muscle. Then you simultaneously side block/parry with your left as your right hand slices across their ribs as you chamber. Then you strike out with your right hand. Where you strike of course is the issue.

There are other ways to step and change the angle of this defense against arm attacks, but more on them to come.

The principle of the 100% Drop

When you’re on the outside, and your striking hand is chambered, one way to drop your opponent all the time is to take that hand and deliver a vertical strike into their outside upper leg, striking into the bone.

This cramps their leg up (charly horse time) and they fall.

It is not the only option, but one that really works.

While there are many other Seisan principles that can be inter-mixed with these versions, we’ll let them be discussed as we move forward, rather than at this moment.

In fact this entire study will be self-reflexive. Many of the Seisan principles can be intertwined at will.

 

Random notes on Seisan-ness

Note a bit long winded perhaps, and likely part of the original material was repeated, but I believe it has some merit even if it only is a think piece on the idea. 7-22-2021.

I find the version of this I originally posted is hard to read, so I have redone this. My use of my son performing Seisan is not meant to be our ultimate experience, rather just a place we all pass through in time. The purpose of this article is the beginning application study of a lifetime of study to show principles that are found in Dan application study.  

Over the past few weeks I’ve been discussing Seisan-ness, at Fighting Arts.com   http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/10/page/0  in the discussion ‘Seisan the Universal Kata’.  Perhaps the underlying source Seisan, I’ve been contemplating for years.

What I’m finding is this is starting to pull together in my approach.

Here are the raw notes I posted on these issues, for your thoughts. I can see pulling all this together with more detail than I’ve posted, but except for this group I’m not sure I want to share this more openly.

I realize some of my comments without the source posts might be hard to follow, but I’m curious about your thoughts on this.

Victor

1. Seisan is a bit of a passion of mine, I doubt there is any version I don't have several variations on tap in the house. Undoubtedly everyone loves the version they practice.

Realistically there is little difference in the complexity of the different versions in use, if you look at them analytically. They're just different.

Goju's is an extremely nice version, but Toon Ryu's is yet a different dimension of time and space. Uechi's is perhaps the one that gives me the greatest pause, but the potential within all the Matsumura No Seisan variations is just as great. They're just different.

The description of Goju's you quoted applies to them all. Such as low kicks, the Isshinryu version contains kicking at the 1" level (to dislocate ankles) to the calf or inner thigh, and all points north. All depending on which kick is being used (even the act of stepping is a kicking exercise).

My new sho-dans spend about 6 months working on part of Isshinryu's Seisan opening application potential, and at that we're not exhausting other potentials that will come in the following years.

Perhaps later this year Ed and others in the area can get together and share Seisan answers and take a look at 20 or so different Seisan's to try and understand how much is in common.

Seisan was documented as performed in festival in the mid 1800's on Okinawa. I haven't seen any documentation what that version was, but that was about the time Matsumora was getting started. Hiagonna's variations arrived on Okinawa in what the late 1890's? Uechi's didn't formally move into till the late 1940's (for decades earlier he was teaching in Japan).

As far as the point where Seisan is taught, from the Kyan lineage it was the beginning. Years ago I saw various Goju groups that didn't teach Seisan till 4th or 5th dan. It sounds like the curricula has been speeded up of late.

On the other hand Miyagi's direct students either learned Seisan right after Sanchin, or not at all. The history seems to show Miyagi chose normally 1 kata plus Sanchin for his students (rarely 2 or 3 others). So most of his students prior to his death would not have studied Seisan, and the concept of teaching all Miyagi's kata is really more a part of his last years thoughts, as well as the practices his students may have changed on his death. [Depending on who's history you read you find different answers, and I can't evaluate them as I wasn't there.]

There really is so much variability in what different groups in the same camps actually did, it's difficult to discuss anything but individual cases.

2. My own analysis is there appears to be a 'source seisan'. Though the different lines diverge, there is enough commonality between almost all of the seisan variations to suggest there was a beginning and then variation in time.

This is similar to the many variations of Patsai on Okinwawa, just at some point a greater fork took place on the road.

There is no way to determine truth. For example some of the Tomari Seisan versions I've seen bear a greater resemblance to the Goju Seisan than the Shorin variations.

On the other hand, in my mind there is a strong case that the Toon Ryu version may be purer old style than the Goju, far smaller numbers have studied Toon Ryu, meaning less chance for variation (IMVHO), and if the Tomari was source there is too much variation from the Toon Ryu, again IMVHO.

Frankly I consider it impossible to prove the source, but I do believe a concerted study of as wide a range as possible leads to a logical conclusion as to what Seisan's original might have contained.

But it takes setting aside style 'prejudice' (not a bad idea for good training, just a hindrance for such an inquiry).

3. Truth and the history of Okinawan Karate, what a quaint idea.

I would suggest any of us can read every work published in our language (such as English), and translate every word published in one or two others and you'll still have no idea of what the truth is.

I think the first truth is pay attention to the reality of the kata, what is actually there. The past is past and all the book larn'ng in the world can't give truth.

Second the movements comprising all Seisan variations are of an advanced kata. Some groups will only teach it to senior students, others will teach it to beginners, but you really can't touch on what the kata truly offers till advanced abilities are reached. The movements alone are not enough for any of them.

As far as which variation of Seisan is most advanced, which one yields technique a practitioner actually can use to drop anyone. Does it get more advanced than that. Any of the variations can suggest hundreds of techniques. Is anything more important than the correct execution of any of those techniques?

As for mining the past (and believe me I'm not immune to this), why not consider what the current Okinawan's are really doing. Do you really think they care, beyond polite history, that any piece of their arts originated in China? Do they want their students going to China for the 'source' and leaving Okinawa behind? I feel certain as a group the acknowledge a past, but also will strongly suggest that has past and their art's current manifestation is the right answer. If not they'd be going to China (and I'm sure some have), but as I've heard they really are spending the time on the art they have, instead of what somebody wishes they could find.

Okinwan karate by design, closed off the past except for oral history. Everyone's assumptions otherwise is simply a house of cards. The better 'historians' tell a good story, and the better story they tell the more one wants to believe it. But belief doesn't make it true (nor does believing make it false).

Even more so what to the current Okinwan's really care about. Course I don't know because I don't go there, but show me the books about Karate Okinawa has published in the past 10 years, and compare those books against what the world has published in that same time. Off hand I can think of just one.

And how many books have been published from Okinwawa anyway, for the past 100 years? Is it fair to consider hose published in Japan at all, or are those before WWII really Okinawan reflections, and those after WWII something newer and different?

We should research, we should look, but also we should consider is there any point beyond interest?

For the quest of say Seisan, while I believe we can demonstrate a Seisan core that transcends all the versions (and would irritate those who maintain otherwise, always the best reason to do the research), and an application potential for that underlying Seisan that applies to all the Seisan variations. But still all we would have is a logical construct, perhaps a useful one, a logical one, an interesting one, but still just a construct.

The value of course is if you can bind that study into actual training.

The more I think about this now the more I can see the potential. I've been trying to see the shape of this study for several decades, perhaps now it shows itself.

4. I have a different starting point about kata divergence in that Isshinryu Wansu is a case in point how things may have occurred.

What logic impels me is there may well have been a Seisan Prime (a Seisan Source) that underwent different paths of development at some junction. There is enough commonality between all of the Sesian kata to suggest what the core may have been, but from the point of divergence different principles and/or additions began to take place.

This appears to be consistent with the Okinawan kata history track after all. For example the Kyan Wansu kata has a different embusen from the Isshinryu Wansu kata (a derivative), but they have a common core too.

It all depends on how one is willing to look at the underlying kata potential.

I'll even take it a step further, I can offer an underlying application potential from my theoretical underlying kata that can apply to all of the versions in existence. Don't matter how they punch or what tension they play with in practice.

Of course none of this implies that such speculation is the original, just a logical analysis that works.

From my perspective, seeing the vast diversity of form I don't buy the underlying core of Seisan would develop spontaneously in different places. What I see is the divergences that arose as the original template met different individuals with different criteria.

But consistent with Okinawan development, names were terribly important, because only the oral history was what was passed along. So Patsai remained Patsai even with the warp of time (the transmission to Japan and the japanification of the names a different topic). And with that logic Seisan remained Seisan even with vastly different warp of intent.

But we're all outsiders playing a game after all, in that we're not Okinawan's. If the Okinawans don't make a case of it, nor care about the past, only what they're doing, except for any positive value to wring from the study, is it worth more?

5. I think I went too fast..."what about serious researchers funding translation of texts that haven't been translated or thoroughly analyzed yet? Surely there is merit in that practice."

While I grant you there is merit in those translation efforts, exactly what texts are you referring to? There are efforts being made on the texts published in Japan in the 30's and 40's or so. But they're not Okinawan texts either.

So at best they're texts written for a non-Okinawan audience, and how much do they share? Much of what was written is in the Itosu/developing Shotokan lineage or derivative.

Mabuni wrote in the Goju tradition a great deal (I translated part of his first two works from French translations on Sanchin/Seiunchin and Sepai, though Mario McKenna has done a fuller job with the original Japanese versions).

In 1933 Mutsu describes Seisan (but it is in core the Seisan Funakoshi described in 1922).

And for the Chinese origins. If there was anything that remotely resembled what Okinawan karate developed I would be very glad to accept it as a plausible link, but what I've seen to date, is just hope fullfillment, not linked practices. It's very likely the Chinese sources of Okinawan tradition, also undergoing change, moved in directions that there is no link really remaining. I once read a British interview with a senior Chinese WuShu coach talking about it. His rough opinion was any martial sources for Okinawa's development were not main stream Chinese arts. He felt they were likely worthy individuals, but in the area which such contact occured, it was likely they were not players on the larger Chinse martial scene. It seems to me likely not to be answered anytime soon.

More importantly so because if the Chinese could show the driect link, after what they suffered from the Japanese in the unpleasantness of the last century (how's that for politically correct about the wretchedness which Japan blanketed on China), they would not hesitate to show the links to 'trump' Japan (and in their eyes, Okinawa is but Japan, the distinction too minor to quibble about).

But clear proof isn't there, and I feel very unlikely to spring forth because it may no longer exist. That doens't mean its not real, just perhaps no longer in existence.

6. I think the number of versions of Seisan cover a wider range than just the three versions offered.

From Matsumura
  Matsumura No Seisan
  Matsumura Orthodox Seisan (Soken)
  Kyan No Seisan
    Nakazato Joen (Shorinji-ryu) No Seisan
    Shimabukuro Zenryo (Seibukan)No Seisan
    Shimabuku Tatsuo  (Isshinryu)No Seisan

    Shimabuku Eizo (Shorin-ryu Shaolin) no Seisan

    Kudaka/Hisataka Seiki (Shorinji-ryu Kenkokan) no Seisan

  Itosu No Seisan
    Funakoshi No Seisan

From Hiagonna Kanryo
  To'on Ryu No Seisan
  Goju No Seisan (many sub variations)
  Mabuni No Seisan (Shito Ryu)

Tomari Traditions
  Tomari No Seisan
  Odo No Seisan

Motobu No Seisan
Agagaki No Seisan (McCarthy)

Uechi Traditions
  There are two different Uechi variations on Seisan
  Paganoon Ryu No Seisan

 
It's unfair to lump them together in the quest.

The simplest basic analysis is the underlying embusen, the pattern they all share.

1. Essentially a row of techniques going out.
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques coming back
4. A "+" pattern of techniques.

IMO this much is present in all the versions. Then the issue is the embellishment, the flux, the tidal flow of the form, execution changes, and additions.

If you start looking at the techniques you are getting into the flex of the art, but if you look at the floor, you're closer to the origins (IMVHO).

Every one of these variations is a complete art in themselves. No source version is necessary. But there can be further analysis towards universal underlying application that spans the versions (proprietary analysis of my own). Much simpler than the detail most commonly sought.

Just my thought, but Seisan Prime might be the inner essence of all the above.

7. It is interesting how people want to find the old secret, better than today’s versions of training. The equivalent of boxers wanting to abandon today’s boxing technology not to go back to the Great John L. Sullivan’s bare knuckle days, but the original Roman games version with spiked gloves. O’sorry, they’re not trying to do that.

When I began to get interested in an underlying Seisan-ness it was to understand how Okinawan karate is linked together, not to know the secret past.

There is no past to discover. Okinawan history of karate is non-literate and also very much non-verbal. Instead direct transmission, pressing the flesh instructor to student. What you are shown is what is, period, unless of course you were also fortunate to train with your instructors instructor.

Observations or logical analysis on Seisan-ness will not find a past that is gone. It can suggest there was an underlying template, that of Seisan-ness, which the future was built upon.

Looking at a great number of different Seisan kata, and setting aside style prejudice (the normal result of training in a system) the most common aspect is the embusen, or the pattern of the form. IMO, you can use the following template with all of the Seisan variations I’ve seen to date.

1. Essentially a row of techniques going out.
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques coming back
4. A "+" pattern of techniques.

Logic would dictate that the original Seisan contained at least this common core.

Then the method of striking and kicking, the manner of moving, stances, additional sections of technique, the method of energy development and release, etc. all seem to arise from different concerted efforts to use that core.

But the Okinawan tendencies seems to not set the past aside but build upon it.

Thus perhaps this is as close as we can get to what the original Seisan kata contains.

Yet if one’s intention is to show how the varying forms contain a great deal in common, there is another sort of analysis to be made. A core application of technique found among all the differing variations. Not to randomly pick movements and maintain they are the original, but to look at application potential all of the versions contain, and suggest the value in working together, practicing those applications, beyond the style specific ones.

In my original exercise of Seisan-ness, my choice of technique would be other than the existing versions, as much as possible. To force looking at the specific underlying application potential and not becoming caught up in the ‘correct’ technique discussion.

For myself I think I’ve found what I was looking for, and as a tool I can use, to help show how all of us Seisan practitioners have a great deal more in common than it appears on the surface.

But it’s not the original, just a logical construct created for a specific purpose.

A tool, an explanation, not a replacement for anything.

8.  Yes how we train is the most important thing. My own Isshinryu Seisan is my passion, but I've received training in Seisan through Shimabuku Ezio lineage, Ueich lineage and Shotokan (non JKA) Hangetsu lineage, as well as having seen most of the rest I've posted (but not all).

What we do with what we have is the most important thing, but the past can be mined.

One acquaintance (Jim Keenan, Dotokushin-kai) once made a case that Isshinryu Seisan's embusen was actually a reflection of the kanji for Seisan. His kanji was not the same as for the number 13. I'm not a Japanese scholar and I never fully understood his point, but when I look at my current analysis, 3 sets of techniques and a "+", and look at one kanji for seisan I've seen

+
-
-
-

There is a similarity, 3 type of techniques and a cross of techniques. But that's just my non-Japanese educated mind looking at a kanji I don't understand.... still..

The interesting thing is there are lessons that cross the groups of systems in how the techniques in those sections can be applied, equally between almost all of the versions.

9. I've seen some Tiger and personally I don't see a direct link to karate, but I'll spend some time reviewing my notes this weekend. Then again it all depends on what you can see doesn't it. Many systems contain tiger forms, but the ones I'm thinking of were a Southern Tiger style.

One point, many Chinese systems use numbers for forms. So Sanchin (3 battles), Seisan (13), Nijushiho (24) Gojushiho (54) and Superimpe (108) may exist as names in those systems. The numbers had philosophical/religious/political significance in China as I remember, but I'm not a scholar in the Chinese arts.

China isn't going out of their way to share much of their traditions, and many of them (including modern wushu) literally begin almost as a newborn. Watch a young tai chi performer who began very young and then consider if anyone who didn't begin at that age can do what they do with the system. Many of the Chinese arts are the same, and you really can only find snippets (even thousands of forms) which do not replace the developmental method of learning their systems.

I wonder if the reason the links to China aren't found are as much as those people who taught the Okinawans, may have been shunned by their peers and the systems dissipated over time. On Okinawan, most of Isshinryu's founders students left when he began teaching the American Marines.

China has a much longer history of distrust of outsiders (hundreds of years of that). Sure port cities dealing with trade are more likely to find those who will share with outsiders, but were they serious, mainstream arts which did perpetuate themselves, or smaller arts that moved on?

All we seem to have are the oral histories, and at that who knows how accurate they were. It's not impossible that the names and histories were deceptions too, after all Okinawan karate was a 'secret' back in those days. Why not blame it on the Chinese... misdirection to outsiders, or 'proof' of the style's worth..... who can really say.

I don't doubt anything, but I retain a health skepticism unless I've seen it myself and can draw my own judgments.

Which is why I find my Seisan-ness analysis interesting. I can show how it can bind almost all the Okinawan systems together by showing what they have in common, not what they have that is different or separate.

10. I think there is another use from my search to understand a logical understructure for Seisan kata, across the varied Okinawan systems. The same logic might be applied to try and validate a Seisan source form.

Seisan history, while mostly an oral tradition does tell us a few things.

First Seisan had been present on Okinawa in the early 1800’s. It was performed in the mind 1800’s at a public demonstration of arts. We have no record what that Seisan looked like. Just the name was the same (assumption on my part, there may have been different Sesian kanji too, just as there are four different sets of kanji for Seiunchin kata reported by Joe Swift, each with a different meaning). Ones assumptions can only go so far, and they never constitute true proof, just a current logical summation.

Second some time in the mid 1800’s Matsumura studied in China and there is a Matsumura no Seisan kata attributed to him.

Third in the late1800’s Hiagonna studied in China and the Toon Ryu, Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu Seisan traditions are attributed to his teachings.

Fourth also it the late 1800’s Uechi studied in China and the Uechi no Sesian tradition is attributed to his teachings too.

Of course Matsumura, Hiagonna and Uechi also may have studied on Okinawa and those studies may have influenced their studies. There is no independent source of truth.

What one can say, however, is the Matsuura/Hiagonna/Uechi traditions all contain a common core of Seisan-ness, as I’ve previously discussed.

With the record Okinawa demonstrates of keeping a kata’s core, even with style changes (such as multiple Kusanku’s, Patsai’s, Rohai’s, etc.) it seems keeping to the different Sesian traditions, no matter how much that core was flexed in each tradition, the core, the underlying structure was not completely altered.

Thus there is a tool you can consider. A source Seisan kata (whether from Okinawa or China) ought contain:

1. A row of techniques moving forward to 12:00 focusing on some type of striking.
2. Using a 180 degree turn to the rear as a technique sequence
3. A row of techniques moving forward to 6:00 using some sort of rising then overturning hand
4. A “+” sequence utilizing turning and multiple striking/techniques to overwhelm an opponent.

Then add the clincher, if the source system calls the form Seisan, case closed, regardless of how much more complex or simple.

Of course it would be even more convincing if there were generations of that locations students and teachers actually practicing those older traditions. Just having a ‘researcher’ returning with the answers is nowhere near as satisfactory as seeing the tradition live.

It would be pleasant if such a source would be located that fits that criteria. The issue would be resolved, from a logical point of view.

But such a forms existence doesn’t mean anybody should study it. It’s just a historical link of interest, to the handful that care. Perhaps it would close some historical puzzles, perhaps not Systems of study are nor more or less worthy. The practitioner makes their studies worthy.

Is it likely to be found?

1. If someone had found it, I guarantee it would be being marketed right now. We know people have searched and are searching. If found it wouldn’t be kept hidden, but sold.

2. If such a link existed, I guarantee China would be pushing the true origins of the Okinawan (and by extension the Japanese) arts. They’d love to hold it over Japan, even if the arts involved really aren’t Japanese. The WWII years have left wounds that may never truly heal. But any source Chinese Arts for Okinawan tradition may be so minor in China (a very likely proposition) that they no longer exist or have changed too much in the last century to be recognizable.

3. It’s even likely the source Chinese tradition may be Okinawan. There have been Chinese villages on Okinawa for centuries. It’s been suggested that they might even be the source for the Bubishi. If that is the true source, its origins may be very old and unrecognizable. And those Chinese families may still have their own private arts that no one outside of their family may know exists. It’s all just speculation, but plausible to some degree.

4. I see no reason the ones most directly affected by this, the current Okinawan systems will ever make a more concerted search. Their future isn’t looking at China but propagating their own systems, and a true search for origins is likely not in their best interests. Outside of a general acknowledgement that such a past exists, they have absolutely no reason to seek it out today. Finding it would only lead some to seek out those arts, not their own.

5. Yes various Okinawan instructors in the past have gone to China. But if they found a direct link, where is the proof?

6. One wonders how much today’s Okinawan’s might be relieved the material Miyagi came back from China with was destroyed by American bombing in WWII.

Logic remains but at tool. It cannot prove truth, but it is one way to contemplate how to recognize what cannot be proven

Here in New Hampshire, a long time ago I began to become interested in understanding the origins of karate. Of particular interest became the nature of Seisan Kata.

Over the years I began to see there was a type of symmetry between different Okinawan groups Seisan Kata, seeming to indicate a common origin.  Thus began my quest to understand this seisan-ness.

Over the years, with the kind assistance of Joe-san, Russ and many others, both on this list and elsewhere, I began to accumulate a very wide range of Okinawan Seisan kata for observation and object analysis, as well as the oral histories behind the different Seisan kata. 

I guess I originally hoped to reverse engineer what that original Seisan may have been. Of course that is non-rational.

I found those who agreed there might be a source Seisan, and those who strongly objected that this could be so because of the dynamic natures of their current Seisan practice, citing these differences as part of the reason it could not be so.

But I continued to look and reflect, until I’m able to now do more than just suggest the source. Instead I believe I can show it quite clearly.

Before I go further I think all of the Seisan kata are perfectly fine in their own right. They all are powerful with great tools for each practitioner. The search for the source can’t be to find a ‘better’ Seisan, rather a different purpose.

Okinawa is and always has been a small place.  It’s obvious the arts that developed there did so with everyone looking over everyone’s shoulder. They gave public performance of their arts (in some fashion) and others with training would observe what was shown and learn from that.

There are clear trends across Okinawn arts.

Time passes and details change.  Those details may be greater or lesser technique sequences, different tool sets being utilized and different energy release utilization.

Time passes but the underlying movement structure, the core embusen, still remains relatively intact.

If we were talking Patsai the variations are clearly there, but within a comfort level of sameness.

Chinto offers a more complex challenge, the actual angles of the kata execution (straight forward, on a 45 degree angle, or side do side) vary but the overall technique sequences are very similar.

But Seisan, with differing in lineages and execution (for simplicity why not say Itosu lineage, Kyan Lineage, Goju Lineage and Uechi Lineage) and very different oral history explaining the source origins, it can be a more difficult ‘sell’ to suggest a common origin.

Yet I think I can do so. It has nothing to do with the source of the original seisan-ness origin (Chinese on Okinawa, various Chinese sources or even original Okinawan origination), yet in turn seisan-ness might be the verification if a source form is found, anyplace.

My analysis of the essence of Seisan is:

1. A row of techniques moving forward to 12:00 focusing on some type of striking.
2. Using a 180 degree turn to the rear as a technique sequence while engaging an opponent.
3. A row of techniques moving forward to 6:00 using some sort of rising then overturning hand.
4. A “+” sequence utilizing turning and multiple striking/techniques to overwhelm an opponent.  In my own expression this is an overload theory, where multiple techniques are being used to overwhelm an opponent’s defenses.

I would suggest these common elements cross the different kata and constitute a core. Everything else fits into stylistic differences that arose over time.

I think this gives us several valuable usages of this knowledge.

First this could be a test whether a source found has been found. In that Okinawa kept to this standard pattern across the Seisan manifestations, it is logical this could be maintained in the source kata(s).  One taking the time to work and learn a source Seisan would be unlikely to abandon so much of the source as time passed. Instead variations occurred, IMO, a common Okinawan theme.

Second, use of this analysis could be used for inter-group discussion and work for a more harmonious binding between different Okinawan stylists. Yes each is different, but each also contain a similar core. This core suggests various applications to these technique series that can be done across the differing versions.

Third, this analysis might also provide a different logical answer to the meaning of the term Seisan itself.

Ok I’m veering into science fiction on this, but a long time ago an acquaintance (Jim Keenan, Dotokushin-kai) once made a case that Isshinryu Seisan's embusen was actually a reflection of the kanji for Seisan.  Unfortunately I cannot find the notes I made from that meeting not having referred to them for years.

His kanji was not the same as for the number 13. Also, I'm not a Japanese scholar and I never fully understood his point, but when I look at my current analysis, 3 sets of techniques and a "+", and look at one kanji for seisan I've seen

 +
 -
 -
 -

There is a similarity, 3 type of techniques and a cross of techniques.

I place no proof on this causal link, but still it makes one think…