An interesting discussion about whether there was bunkai for the opening movements of Kusanku kata.

 

Charles,

 

Taking the opening movement of Kusanku, I have an entire range of possible applications. That and the fact Sherman clearly shows one he saw on YouTube Sherman Harrill Bunkai. I also show an Okinawan Motobu-Ryu individual showing the same entry. So obviously there are those on Okinawa in other systems who can use those movements too. Note I also have a surprise ending.

 

Victor

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There was an interesting discussion about whether there was bunkai for the opening movements of Kusanku kata. Apparently this was not taught so by Shimabuku Sensei nor by Nakazato Joen of Shorinryu, both of them students of Kyan Chotoku.

 

According to AJ Advincula “The opening move “〇” of Kūsankū kata symbolizes Heaven and Earth and Man meaning World Peace. There is no combat bunkai for this move. It represents, Karate ni sente nashi (空手に先手なし), There is No First Attack in Karate.”

 

Nkazato Joen (1922~2010) of Shorinji-ryu, studied with Kyan Chotoku.The opening move “〇” of Kūsankū kata symbolizes Sansai (三才) Heaven and Earth and Man meaning World Peace. There is no combat bunkai for this move as It represents, Karate ni sente nashi (空手に先手なし), There is No First Attack in Karate.

No doubt that is what they taught.

 

But there are many paradigm for the way Isshinryu was transmitted.

And I have experienced several which were also effective.

 

 

Thus I began thinking while I was a passenger on my trip across America for 2,800 miles to Arizona.

 

 

When I began my study the word ‘bunkai’ was not in use. Neither from my instructors or among the many schools I visited to have someplace to train. Neither did anyone discuss it as a possibility at tournaments, in discussions.

 

 

From the variety of Karate magazines I read, neither was it mentioned  then, But I did notice that Okinawan instructors did use sections of their kata to demonstrate how they would apply karate against an attacker. Even Okinawan Isshinryu instructors would do this.

 

 

Then beginning in 1980, I started  visiting a fellow competitor, Tristan Sutrisno, and among the many interesting things I was seeing, I learned the word ‘bunkai’ and how it was used in his tradition. (time wise, this was before Oyata Sensei began appearing the magazines. His family use of the term, was quite different from how the word Bunkai was to be used by many,

 

 

‘Bunkai’ was not a kyu study, their existence not hidden from them, rather they had much to work on outside of ‘bunkai’. ‘Bunkai’ was a dan study, where each movement point of a kata had a different sequence of applications, then as dan study moved forward, for the same movement points in those kata, an entirely different ‘bunkai’ was studied. You could not anticipate what the application would be, from viewing the kata. Those sequences were in effect a mnemonic device to remember those application studies.

 

 

The techniques were explosive and covered an entire range of uses.

 

 

Not the same dimension of movement, but somewhat resembling the Shito Ryu use of ‘kakushite’ or hidden hand. Interestingly this idea was suggested by   , a student of Itosu, in his 1938 explanation of how kata technique could be used.

 

 

As this ‘bunkai’ explanation was the first I learned this is what the term means to me. And as I have viewed how different people show  what they refer as bunkai, around the world, it remains unique from what others so.

 

 

Not that I have a problem with what anyone does. I believe all of it serves various purposes. Just not the same purpose.

 

 

I have watched the term bunkai take on many meanings. Not necessarily the same as was originally shown by Mabuni Sensei in 1934.

 

 

But the idea has become a ‘charged’ work IMO, and for clarity I prefer to call the quest the look for ‘Application Potential’ and then the greater study to make that potential work a different term ‘Application Realization’. 

 

 

Funny how people don’t talk about the training involved to really use those Application Potentials. That is the deeper study in Karate, not just what can be done.

 

 

Essentially kata is movement. And all movement has the potential to be used to end an attack. That some potentials are not explored, is a personal choice, one that does not make the potential go away.

 

 

The larger study is how to enter an attack to use that potential, How to use various force multipliers (such as knee release, waist movement, etc.) to create maximum effectiveness. Such things are necessary, not just realizing the potential exists.

 

 

In theory it is simple, if use of a movement make the opponent fall down and go boom, the potential exists. Whether one has the training to use that potential is a different problem.

 

 

I was fortunate to have spent some time training with the late Sherman Harrill. He spent over 40 years exploring those potentials. Those meetings inspired me even more for my own explorations.

 

 

Application Potential, Application Realization, those who can Do.

 

 

Several plausible uses for Kusanku opening movrments. One from

Motobu Ryu, one from Sherman Harrill.

 

 

 Ryukyu Kings secret headquarters flow Palace martial arts introduction to Headquarters Palace hand, headquarters martial arts book – 2015

 

 

This is one of Sherman's Applications for Kusankku Kata's opening.

 

Hhere is AJA showing one of the Shimabuku kumite, and IMO, for all intent and Purposes this is just a different way to use the Kusanku kata opening/

 

 

Shimabuku Tatsuo no Kumite (島袋龍夫の組手)

 

7. a. Full nelson, karate cut groin
b. Full nelson, grab leg, heel kick
c. Full nelson, grab one leg, karate cut groin
d. Back neck breaker and choke hold, grab groin

 

 

Full nelson escape

 

 

 

Charles,

 

Anothere interesting thing is that AJA has been posting a lot of videos on YouTube,

You should check this out, almost new videos daily..

Such as Wansu kata Isshin-ryū Karate performed by Fukuhara Kensei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THps8C8VlU8

or Naihanchi kata, Isshin-ryū Karate 2002

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY5bWDeOCu4

Isshin-ryū Kobudō Hamahiga nu tuifa performed by Arcenio Advincula

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m92YzbDwDY

or Seiunchin kata by AJA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6WWiQxOq80

the site is at

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYUD8aZDgIviuIEaXa-Ishw

 

AJA on the Sunsu Thrust Kick and Kempo Gokui

 

Nakazato Joen left and Bunei Okuhara.

 Both were students of Kyan Chōtoku .

 

In a interview with Nakazato Joen,

he dated the photo for me as December 16, 1941.

 

Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei also taught this technique.

This is karate and why it is taught only for selfdefense.

 

*Sadly the original photo did not survive.*

 

 

This is the kick being discussed.

  

 

 More photos of a young Matsuda Yoshimasa (Myobukan founder

 at his teacher's backyard dojo

 

Did Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei ever teach a standard bunkai. I have been asked this question many times.  - AJA

 

This is bunkai with the toe-rip-kick found in Sunsu kata.

Tatsuo Sensei taught two toe-rip-kicks in Sunsu

The eye must see all sides (目要觀四向).

Kenpo gokui (拳琺極意)

 

 

"The most important thing is the eyes." ~ Major Mike replying to my question, "What did Tatsuo Sensei say is the most important thing in karate".

 

Shimabuku Zenryo (Seibukan) left doing the double downward chop in Seisan kata. As we can see, he is using Sanchin type tension.

 

In an interview with Nakazato Joen (Shorinji-ryu), who also taught tension in Seisan kata, he learned it from Kyan Chotoku. Nakkazato Joen studied with Kyan Chotoku in 1937 to 1943.

 

For sure, I was taught to use tension and abdominal breathing when performing Seisan during the first part of the kata.

 

 

Pechurin vs Suparinpei

 

I often see people using the two names interchangeably. For example they will call out Pechurin or have it in the title of their video and then proceed to do the Goju-Ryu Suparinpei. The two names for me are for two separate kata and are not the same. Pechurin refers to the kata that is practiced in Toon-Ryu. It is shorter than Goju's Suparinpei and for the parts that they do share most are done differently. The names also have different meanings. So why do people keep using the names as if they are the same kata? Also if Pechurin is what Kanryo taught, where did Suparinpei come from?

 

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Steve Hampsten My teacher, Motoo Yamakura, tells me they mean the same thing. Pechurin may be an older or Chinese pronunciation but that's simply my conjecture. Chinen sensei, fwiw, used the word Pechurin when talking about this kata and he was a goju guy. Curious to see what others have on the subject. Anyone have kanji on the two names?

 

Filip Konjokrad The kanji are in fact different. 百歩連 for pechurin 一百零八 or 壱百零八 for Suparinpei depending on whose lineage you follow.

 

Shihan Dean Chapman I have always wondered this? Never seen the Toonryu Kata.

 

Roy Kamen Suparenpei and Pechurin (Pechulen) are the same kata. It has changed over the years with more difficult pieces removed

 

Filip Konjokrad I've always though that Suparinpei is the result of Miyagi adding to Higashionna's Pechurin.

 

Dan Djurdjevic Filip is correct, I suspect. I have seen tou'on ryu'

bechurin and it is subtly, but significantly different to goju's suparinpei.

 

Greg Graham Pechurin translates to "100 continuous steps" and Suparinpei translates to "108". I also think Miyagi built on the kata from other sources.

 

Dan Djurdjevic What's interesting about the name is that the characters for suparinpei do indeed mean 108, but are very rarely used, eg only in formal or legal documents.

 

Roy Kamen The Kata has many ancient elements that touch the spiritual domain. But no one wants to know about that. The kata is not about fighting people. The foot patterns, hand positions, transitions, directions, breathing, visualization, emotions... Its just too far out for most to fully realize or accept. So they make it about fighting.

 

Paul Coleman Buddhist numbers.

 

Mark Tankosich My friend M Mac Kenna is the one to answer this, I'm guessing...

 

M Mac Kenna Hi Mark. As I've been told by Kanzaki sensei via Kyoda Juhatsu, Higaonna never referred to it as suparempei. And when Kanzaki sensei first saw Goju ryu Suparempei he was struck at their similarity When he asked Kyoda about this, his usually mild mannered teacher snapped his head off when he answered, "Higaonna tanmei only ever called it Pechurin!" Why the two kata? That's a long story. Maybe later I'll chat about it.

 

Mark Tankosich M Mac Kenna Thanks for responding Mario. You're the go-to guy here, IMHO.

 

Roy Kamen M Mac Kenna Good story! Thanks. We do Pechurin in our Dojo. Handed down by Toguchi and Matayoshi and Kawakami.

 

Filip Konjokrad M Mac Kenna Would love to hear more about the two kata if you have the time. You might be one of the few people who has the definitive answer to this.

 

Chaji Guy Filip Konjokrad I've not encountered many definitive answers in Karate, but have heard many, many points of view. Makes life rather interesting...spice of life...

 

Filip Konjokrad Chaji Guy What I meant with my comment is he is more or less the only person outside Japan that has trained extensively in both Toon-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. He is the most likely person to have the actual answer. Everything from the rest of us is pure speculation or conjecture.

 

Chaji Guy What I'm getting at is that there may be differing perspectives, and we are left with the history given to us by our seniors. My teacher's teachers referred to the kata as Pechurin or Pechulen,, and that is what I'm passing on to my students.

 

Filip Konjokrad My opinion is that unless you're doing it as is performed in Toon-Ryu it's not Pechurin....however opinions can change with new information.

 

Chaji Guy Somewhere I have a copy of the original list of kata from the early 70's from when Toguchi and Kawakami were in NY. I pretty sure it says Pechulen, but could be Pechurin. Now I'm interested in the kanji...

 

Roy Kamen Chaji Guy, I don't know if you were around for the discussions on our board about the futility of translating the kanji. David Wong gave us quite a lesson on it. What I got from that discussion was that the meanings of the writings are tied to the time in history, geographical location, political situation and intent of the individual who wrote it. I hope I am clear... it was a very long discussion and David Wong went into very specific detail.

 

Peter Swallow Is any kata about fighting? Oyo bunkai, being application of kata is about fighting.

 

Roy Kamen Yes, Kata is primarily an energy management system. It also has built in it a path to character development, some say "enlightenment". IMHO the only way to reach the higher spiritual levels is to approach each kata as if it were a life and death encoun...See More

 

Dan Antonsen Came across these old pictures tonight and remembered this post. The pictures where taken in 1995 and show Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi explaining about Suparinpei and Pechurin. He said Pechurin was the older kata and that all Suparinpei is contained within Pechurin. If you look at the kanji for each you can see this is also the case. This is what Dai Sensei was pointing out. This is Dai Sensei's own handwriting also. I don't normally comment but I thought this was relevant.

 

 

Dan Antonsen Close up picture of the two different names

 

Tory Ellarson I'm starting to think that no one has any idea what Peichurin actually means or how it's written. There's been a few writings suggested so far in this thread.

Linguistically the one on the left makes no sense for either. It has the same meaning as Suparinpei but it's just the pa pei part. (it's basically saying "hundred eight" instead of "one hundred and eight")

The one on the right is obviously supposed to be Suparinpei but what is the first Kanji? is that supposed to be the banking character?

I had heard that Peichurin was "百招連" even then I'm pretty sure it's just someone's guess. But it works for the sounds and has a meaning in line with traditional Chinese martial terminology.

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