1992 2nd set of self defense tapes from the summer camp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEKJrZ5fD6s
The Bushi No Te summer camps were sponsored by Tristan Sutrisno
Instructors from multiple systems shared at those camps
Such as Shotokan, Kung Fu, Isshinryu, Goju ryu, Aikido and others.
On returning from those camps we had review sessions
working on what we were shown.
Isshinryu Journal vol 55– Victor’s Way July 17, 2010
In my early days as black belt I had the opportunity to study Chinese forms from Ernest Rothrock. In those days I did not have a movie camera nor a VHS machine to watch what I filmed. Most of my studied were only recorded in my own sweat equity. But those days offered me a unique opportunity to learn something new, and i did learn.
Those were very different days from today. I used to attend many tournaments to keep pushing myself. That also meant I was to judge. Many times I had to judge kung fu practitioners and quickly realized that I had no idea how to judge them fairly.
So I took advantage of a very unique opportunity that presented itself to me.
Memories
Doing all of this for some time what I was able to do decades ago becomes more precious in my memory. It’s taken along time but I’ve just discovered some Chinese clips of forms that I studied with Ernie Rothrock. They’re mostly walk through and not completely the same, but close enough that the flavor they possess remains.
I had been training in Tai Chi with Ernie for about 9 months when one day it struck me that at tournaments I had to judge kung fu and perhaps I should study some to be a better judge. I approached Ernie before class and asked him if I could do so. He asked me what did I want to learn and I told him I thought he should decide.
Note: My Yang Tai Chi study required 2 years to learn the entire form and ½ of the Yang Straight Sword Set.
He turned around and pointed to a chart on the wall behind him and told me “Pick One”. There were 200 forms on that chart (later I would learn they were from Pai Lum (which his schools were teaching), Northern Shaolin, Tai Tong Long (Northern Preying Mantis) and Fann Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw – which he was then studying.
I look at the chart and told him I have no idea why don’t you choose one for me. He then looked and the chart and said, “Ok, let’s try this one” and elected Duan Da Kuen.
Dune Da Quen is a an intermediate level Northern Shaolin form performed by me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvHfpxpyL-M
I don’t recall how long it took, I only had one ½ hour lesson a week but eventually I learned it, and started my kung fu studies.
Most of his systems were Northern ones with very deep stances. In the long run they strengthened me a great deal for my own Kusanku practice.
When I concluded it I then studied a Leopard form, for I wanted to try learning those spinning ground circular sweeps. I did learn it but never was able to even get close to those moves and eventually set it aside.
Next he had an annual clinic for his students and there taught a basic Mantis form. Now his students were studying Pai Lum, but on his clinics he’d always teach something else. The Mantis form was referred to as ‘slip in and hit’, later he told me it was sip sau ching’
Here is a close version to the one I studied:
Slip In and Hit is a Northers Preying Mantis form performed by Gay Aston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqOJVwncCFE
One summer Roy Blackwell, my first black belt, visited me and I had Laoshi train him in one of their green belt forms, Supple Dragon. Years later I then had him cover it in detail with our Derry group and it became the form I incorporated into our training to honor his sharing with me.
Next I studied Tam Tuie from the Ching Woo school, the basic lower kicking set that is a complete system in its own right.
My studies with him them progressed into Hon Kuen (walking form) of Eagle Claw (one of it’s 3 major sets, this one containing all of the Eagle Claw techniques. It contained 10 rows of techniques.
Further I studied a 3 sectional staff form from him. And at his annual clinics learned the Ching Woo Kune Le Kuen (Power Fist). In Eagle Claw the student first learned 10 Ching Woo association forms before beginning their instructors system (as in Eagle Claw).
Shortly after completing it he moved to open a school in Pittsburgh and then my training consisted of those visits I could make across Pennsylvania.
I should note the forms he shared with me were not ones his students studied. Eventually as my studies progressed in addition to my weekly classes (they were private) in Scranton I’d travel to Wilkes Barry every Saturday to visit one or two karate schools to train in the morning and then spend the afternoon in his school to practice my studies. I’d frequently see his senior students at the door to the training hall watching me as my forms were not theirs.
Not that I was a great student but I always felt Ernest enjoyed teaching something outside of his school program from his many other studies and I was that guinea pig I guess.
After he moved to Pittsburg I continued to visit Wilkes Barre weekly and his students shared several other forms with me (Pai Lum Kuen, their basic staff and short staff sets).
It was eclectic to say the best. In short order Ernest and I became friends. We’d travel occasionally to Baltimore to compete in Mr. Conde’s tournaments. Ernie would go there only because they had kung fu only divisions (he would not compete against karate – long before my time there were literal karate –kung fu wars at the tournaments leaving very bad feelings).
After a year or so on Dune de Kune practice I told him I was going to try and compete with it, boy, then he turned on the screws on tons of small points. I did compete in a kung fu division in Baltimore and actually got a respectable score for my efforts.
After moving to Derry, our visits became less frequent. Bushi No Te Gatherings and occasional visits to Pittsburgh. One visit he showed me the last ½ of the Yang Tai Chi sword form causing me lots of more work. Truthfully the hardest thing I’ve ever studied.. it’s all in the wrist.
Then about 16 years ago (15 years into my tai chi practice, at one summer camp he showed me how little I really knew demolishing my tai chi by simple touches. After that he proceeded to share the underlying alignment principles (which make it possible to strengthen everything we study. BTW his instructor waited 15 years to explain it to him too.
It’s hard to really describe what the chance to train with him and become his friend has meant to my life. Perhaps if I describe what meant most, in those days he was teaching in Wilkes Barre. That period Maureen and I were working very different hours, with her work at the Y and her swim teams taking evenings an weekends. On Saturday mornings I’d meet him and several of his students for breakfast at Denny’s, then visit several schools to work Karate in the mornings. In the afternoons I’d drop in his school, we would chat and most often he’d ask leading questions trying to draw my thoughts out, questions that made me work for years or more. Then his days classes would be over and the senior students and I would start running forms one after another, music playing in the background. It was the sheer fun of practice forcing myself into deeper stances, trying to change my movement style from karate to kung fu needs.
I love all the arts I’ve studied and worked them as best I can, but those hours remain precious, pushing myself for myself.
Later when I moved to Derry, the onset of arthritis and lack of skilled kung fu stylists to play with one by one I made the choice to set those arts aside, for the most part.
Not my tai chi and of course not Supple Dragon, but all the rest in time became something past.
Ernie maintains the value of knowledge is worth everything. No one can do everything forever, but once upon a time I played with Dragons, Eagles, Mantis’ and other things.
And it was truly fun.
victor
Many years ago I met with George Donahue, who invited me to his apartment to discuss many martial ideas. At that time George was the Martial Arts publications editor for Tuttle Publishing, one of the publishing companies for serious martial publications. George had been raised in Japan and on Okinawa, had even been a child star for a TV series about a Samauri (where he played the star as a boy). George was also an exponent of a karate system called Kashiba Juku.
Our discussion covered many things but one of them just popped into my memory, the idea of Me Kata. He explained Me Kata was when the emphasis of a kata was to look more pleasing for public performance. Not a ‘bad’ thing per sea, but often on Okinawa Me Kata was used in a deriding manner that a kata was done just for show, and was less than martial.
So when I saw the blog entry about Me Kata at Motobu Ryu it sparked that memory.
Of course for Motobu-Ryu it is not seen in the same way, for their group acknowledges the like of their karate to older Okinawan dance.
Which makes the term a variable meaning depending on the context it is used.
However, remembering how George explained it to me, suggests to me something I have been feeling for a very long time. I have the impression, athletic prowess not withstanding, that what Japanese, and other International Competition kata (including much of what I see from Okinawa) could be more classified as Me Kata (eye kata) Performance to look better, appealing to audience and judge standards.
That does not preclude that there is martial potential, but IMO unless those kata are studied that way to exploit those martial potentials, they have just become “Me Kata” performances.
Any time an adjustment is made to a kata just to look better for the judges (or the audience) the chance become more that Me Kata has taken over.
Just my opinion.
A very long time ago I attempted very serious Bubishi research.. This discussion on a world wide Goju discussion group had contributions from around the world. Discussion like this are rarely seen these days.
From: "Victor " <isshim@...>
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 2:04 pm
A recent question about the meaning of 'Ji' in the McCarthy Bubishi has caused me to think about Miyagi's development of Tensho, as compared to some similar palm techniques in several Chinese systems.
The individual who asked me wondered whether I had had the word "Ji" translated. I readly admitted I had not the knowledge of Chinese to do so myself but offered several answers from my own Bubishi research. Those being:
McCarthy's Tuttle Translation of the 'Bubishi' doesn't translate the Six Ji Hands at all.
Alexander's 'Bubishi' calls it the "6 Wind Hands (Rokkishu) of the Shaolin Style".
John Sells in his 'Unante' says "Miyagi Chojun derived Tensho from Chapter 22 of the Bubishi "6 Ways to use the Fist.. Roku Go Ichi Ken Sho (Rokkishu).
Then referencing Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's text on White Crane I wonder if it is possible to say that Ji stands for Jin or Martial Power. In that context the 6 hands of martial power makes a little sense.
Surely a simple linguistic issue, but then I started looking at Park's 2nd text on PaQua last night and was struck at how long range the palm strikes he was showing , were performed. In a similar vein I compare it to the palm strikes in my Yang and Wu Tai Chi Chaun studies.
This gets me to thinking. Miyagi Sensei is reported to have been inspired by that section of the Bubishi when he created his Tensho kata. Truthfully, while Tensho does use 6 different palm techniques, I've never worked out whether they are the same as those in the Bubishi.
But they are performed with in a much different manner than those techniques I've seen in the Chinese systems. They are performed at a much closer range, IMVHO.
An interesting fact, my friend Ernest Rothrock studied a Pai Lum form with Daniel Pai known as Tension Form. It is almost an exact clone of Tensho, but with different stances and full long range circles in each strike. When doing the form it is done with 'Snake' Breathing, or a long "Ssssssssssssssssssss" with each technique. [Actually he
informs me that is the first of 3 entirely different breathing patterns. The other two are very hard on the body. I once tried to learn the second pattern, but without the long preparation for that training, was unsuccessful with it. At one period of his training, Pai had him work Pai had him work this form for a year with no other training.
Pai Lum Tension Form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmfBSdN_Ep0
I don't exactly believe this is necessarily a true Chinese/Okinawan connection. Pai was Hawaiian ,and Miyagi had traveled and demonstrated in Hawaii. It is not necessarily a stretch of the imagination to see if Miyagi demonstrated Tensho on Hawaii, experienced martial artists in the audience could have understood and 'borrowed' the form. In that case it might be the source of this training. Pai Lum (the Pai family system is based on a combination of Northern and Southern forms).
Just thought this interesting.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
We need to take caution when discussing Okinawa/Chinese connections.
Chineses absorve quickly foreign cultures and integrate them to their in an authentic alchemical process. I am impressed about how Chineses knows karate like us, and I have caution today when I see a Quan and see occurences of ypical patterns of Karate. It is necessary establish dates and lineages in researches (like autenticate a historical document) to go ahead in our conclusions. So, the observation of Victor about Tensho and Pai Lum can be pertinent.
Fernando
Brasil
Victor Gong,
Glad to see you posting! As I promised, all about "ji" that I can provide... maybe David has some other insights from his Chinese studies.
I have seen "Rokkishu" written two different ways in hanzi/kanji. I have posted them to the "files" section of the Nafadi_Kenkyukai site, for those interested.
The first would be Liu Qi Shou in Mandarin, or the "6 hands of Qi/Ki/Chi/the Force/Mojo/et al" This is found in Mabuni's version of the Bubishi as illustrated in his 1934 "Seipai no Kenkyu."
The second would be Liu Ji Shou. This is the version found in the two Miyagi/Higa lineage Bubishi I have seen. In this case, according to the World Wide Web CJK English Database (URL below) Ji means one of several things:
(1) The key, main point, pivotal point to something. Most basic thing. Pivotal affair.
(2) Mechanism, works, device. Means, instrument, motive (power), agent.
(3) Working(s), function, action, motive. Sign, indication, omen, symptom.
(4) A spring, an impulse, chance, opportunity, occasion.
(5) Talent, ability. The capacity or temperament of a person.
What is interesting, though, is that according to the research of Tokashiki Iken, the "ji" hands often change from teacher to teacher, and that he has also run across people with 10 "ji" hands, for example.
> Then referencing Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's text on White
> Crane I wonder if it is possible to say that Ji
> stands for Jin or Martial Power. In that context
> the 6 hands of martial power makes a little sense.
Good try, but not quite... <grin>
See kanji for "jin" also at the "files" section.
> This gets me to thinking. Miyagi Sensei is reported
> to have been inspired by that section of the Bubishi
> when he created his Tensho kata. Truthfully, while
> Tensho does use 6 different palm techniques, I've
> never worked out whether they are the same as those
> in the Bubishi.
Many of the same palm techniques found in Miyagi Sensei's Tensho are also reportedly found in Uechiryu (right Mario-san?) as well as To'onryu (right Mario-san?) although not necessarily in "kata" form.
Anyway,
Joe Swift, Japan
Okinawan Bubishi is a Quan Pu, that is, a logbook about the basics, history, and
philosophy of a Quan Fa school. These books still remains very common in China
today. Quan Pu frequently have: the history of the system and lineage, stances,
hands postures, the forms (codified or drawing) and medicines and advices (today
is very rare found medicines in these books and classes of First Aids are
strongly recommended), in this order. Now, the stances and hands postures are
that that occur in all forms/xing of the system. In truth, these little books
are perfect and simple dialectical devices.
The Rokkishu of the Bubish is only the hands postures used in the forms
described in this Quan Pu, but it is difficult to judge this because our Bubishi
can be a spurious journal with elements of several sources. However, I don´t see
any element that resemble Tensho in this Rokkishu (I am referring here "rokkishu"
as a technical chapter that show six hands postures; if eight, it will be called
"happoshu", etc).
I don´t belive that Miyagi had created the kata Tensho from this chapter. This
sound to me as a childish fable about "a misterious magic book written by some
kami from which the fantastic Master Miyagi discovered a kata". I don´t believe
also that the term "Goju" was removed from the Bubishi´s "eight precepts on
kempo".
Finally, I think that Tensho was the beginning of some incomplet Quan that
Miyagi learns with someone or saw it in a book and used the theme and idea. Just
my thoughts.
Goju kata Tensho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6h9NxIamxQ&t=58s
Fernando
The karate of Choki Motobu
I recently gave in and purchased the DVD done by Motobu's grandson on the karate of Choki Motobu. I had been curious for a long time and I finally went for it.
The first part of the DVD is Motobu "revisionist" history, including commentary, accounting of events and discussions about the feud between Funakoshi and Motobu. When I say "revisionist" I don't mean its a bad thing at all necessarily. I found it an interesting history lesson as the DVD was clearly working to reverse the commonly held belief that Motobu Choki Sensei was a roughneck and a brawler. However, I thought it also started to border in the opposite direction of pro-Motobu propaganda, but hey its their video they can say what they want.
The video also contains naihanchi shodan and nidan with application (slow and regular motion speed) and the 13 (I think) self defenses of the ryu (also with slow and regular motion, with commentary). There is some interesting stuff in the kata part and I thought that Motobu Sensei moved incredibly well for a man of his age.
Not everything made sense to me from my perspective but it was an interesting video and I learned a lot about Motobu's (the grandson's) karate. The video is high quality in my opinion, production wise. It is definitely different than most karate that you will see on the net or otherwise and worth a look in my opinion.
I just thought I would post some impressions and ask if anyone else has seen the video and has other comments?
Best,
Tim
__________________
Tim Black
That reminds me I need to return it. Thanks
Thanks for the reminder. I have it at my house. I need to return it. A student of mine loaned it to me. Because I teach a version of Naihanchin I received from another Goju Teacher. He thought I would find it interesting. A couple of things did interest me.
1) I wanted to see if there were any parallels in Naihanchi and how Naihanchi is done within Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu. There is. Naihanchi as I learned it begins with a elbow down palm angled up position. Motobu does it arm extended straight out to the side. Motobu Ha Shito Ryu does this also. They are the only two groups I have seen do this. There may be others though.
2) The way he does Buddha hands parallels the way we do JoGe Uke. Most Goju guys bring the lower hands past the hips in form as if it was a brushing /receiving technique. We bring it straight in front of the belt knot. We use it to strike incoming attacks. The Motobu tape showed this also.
__________________
Ed Boyd
I've seen the original Japanese version of this material.
It is interesting somebody edited the video for American audiences.
Did they show Naifanchin being done both ways as the Japanese video did?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR5RStGWKDQ
One time Naifanchi began starting to the right, and the group version was done starting to the left (as does Isshinryu's).
The Japanese tape also showed the opening of their Seisan kata too, very different.
At the very end of this chain is the original Japanese version.
__________________
Victor Smith
Hi Victor:
No the naihanchi only went to the right (his right) but he looked left. Also, no opening to Seisan kata in this version nor was there a group version of naihanchi.
Best,
Tim
Thanks Tim,
That makes the Japanese version interesting doesn't it?
When I saw Naifanchi being done in the two different directions, the version to the right following Motobu Senseis book and the group of seniors doing it starting to the left (similar to the Isshinryu version), it made me take notice what was happening. I might speculate as a training exercise, it may make no difference.
Unfortunately my knowledge of Japanese (Hi, Ohio, yame and being able to count to 10, with a hand full of other useful words) isn't sufficient to understand what was being described, so I could just look.
Sadly, the short opening of Seisan wasn't shown to completion, leaving one wanting more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWK97DwWJ3Q
__________________
Victor Smith
We train Naihanchi going both directions first as training tools, as speculated. Motobu Sensei changes the first direction periodically.
As a tidbit, one many people over-look, watch the open hand in the beginning... when going to the right, it is right open over left which is the opposite of every version I have seen which contains the classic left over right...this concept is unique to Motobu Kempo.
As a Motobu ha Shito Ryu stylist (Shibucho for Virginia), I have noticed some similarities but there are far more differences. We had the opportunity to demonstrate Motobu Naihanchi for new Seishinkai (Motobu ha Shito Ryu) Soke Sadatomo Harada...without telling him (it was during testing). He remarked "Motobu no Naihanchi, ne"... pretty cool.
If you have any questions, you all can ask him yourself. He is returning to Fredericksburg, Virginia (shameless plug) in July. Info at: www.kenkyukai.org
Motobu Kempo is quite deep, there are many philosophies that do not show up on video. You need to see him in person to appreciate it. On top of all of this, he is also the 14th Soke of Motobu Udonde, and gives an opportunity for everyone to see and practice this rarely seen art.
As far as the opening to Seisan...its not Seisan...that is the beginning to one of the Motode kata from Udonde. Motobu Kempo only has three kata and the 12 one steps... Udonde (which his students study concurrently) contains more kata as well as kobudo.
Best
Rob Rivers
Motobu Choisi Naifanchi applications
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPRyBtlORQ
The original Japanese video on Motobu
MOTOBU RYU NAIHANCHI KARATEJUTSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Ev2Crjygg
A few karate jutsu techniques from Mabuni Kenei, one of the sons of Shito-ryu founder Mabuni Kenwa.
Sensei Kenei Mabuni and Sensei Hidetoshi Nakahashi are demonstration some basic techniques with great effects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKY67_ZKoU8
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