Saturday, February 18, 2023

Pechurin vs Suparinpei

 



I often see people using the two names interchangeably. For example they will call out Pechurin or have it in the title of their video and then proceed to do the Goju-Ryu Suparinpei. The two names for me are for two separate kata and are not the same. Pechurin refers to the kata that is practiced in Toon-Ryu. It is shorter than Goju's Suparinpei and for the parts that they do share most are done differently. The names also have different meanings. So why do people keep using the names as if they are the same kata? Also if Pechurin is what Kanryo taught, where did Suparinpei come from?

 

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Steve Hampsten My teacher, Motoo Yamakura, tells me they mean the same thing. Pechurin may be an older or Chinese pronunciation but that's simply my conjecture. Chinen sensei, fwiw, used the word Pechurin when talking about this kata and he was a goju guy. Curious to see what others have on the subject. Anyone have kanji on the two names?

 

Filip Konjokrad The kanji are in fact different. 百歩連 for pechurin 一百零八 or 壱百零八 for Suparinpei depending on whose lineage you follow.

 

Shihan Dean Chapman I have always wondered this? Never seen the Toonryu Kata.

 

Roy Kamen Suparenpei and Pechurin (Pechulen) are the same kata. It has changed over the years with more difficult pieces removed

 

Filip Konjokrad I've always though that Suparinpei is the result of Miyagi adding to Higashionna's Pechurin.

 

Dan Djurdjevic Filip is correct, I suspect. I have seen tou'on ryu'

bechurin and it is subtly, but significantly different to goju's suparinpei.

 

Greg Graham Pechurin translates to "100 continuous steps" and Suparinpei translates to "108". I also think Miyagi built on the kata from other sources.

 

Dan Djurdjevic What's interesting about the name is that the characters for suparinpei do indeed mean 108, but are very rarely used, eg only in formal or legal documents.

 

Roy Kamen The Kata has many ancient elements that touch the spiritual domain. But no one wants to know about that. The kata is not about fighting people. The foot patterns, hand positions, transitions, directions, breathing, visualization, emotions... Its just too far out for most to fully realize or accept. So they make it about fighting.

 

Paul Coleman Buddhist numbers.

 

Mark Tankosich My friend M Mac Kenna is the one to answer this, I'm guessing...

 

M Mac Kenna Hi Mark. As I've been told by Kanzaki sensei via Kyoda Juhatsu, Higaonna never referred to it as suparempei. And when Kanzaki sensei first saw Goju ryu Suparempei he was struck at their similarity When he asked Kyoda about this, his usually mild mannered teacher snapped his head off when he answered, "Higaonna tanmei only ever called it Pechurin!" Why the two kata? That's a long story. Maybe later I'll chat about it.

 

Mark Tankosich M Mac Kenna Thanks for responding Mario. You're the go-to guy here, IMHO.

 

Roy Kamen M Mac Kenna Good story! Thanks. We do Pechurin in our Dojo. Handed down by Toguchi and Matayoshi and Kawakami.

 

Filip Konjokrad M Mac Kenna Would love to hear more about the two kata if you have the time. You might be one of the few people who has the definitive answer to this.

 

Chaji Guy Filip Konjokrad I've not encountered many definitive answers in Karate, but have heard many, many points of view. Makes life rather interesting...spice of life...

 

Filip Konjokrad Chaji Guy What I meant with my comment is he is more or less the only person outside Japan that has trained extensively in both Toon-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. He is the most likely person to have the actual answer. Everything from the rest of us is pure speculation or conjecture.

 

Chaji Guy What I'm getting at is that there may be differing perspectives, and we are left with the history given to us by our seniors. My teacher's teachers referred to the kata as Pechurin or Pechulen,, and that is what I'm passing on to my students.

 

Filip Konjokrad My opinion is that unless you're doing it as is performed in Toon-Ryu it's not Pechurin....however opinions can change with new information.

 

Chaji Guy Somewhere I have a copy of the original list of kata from the early 70's from when Toguchi and Kawakami were in NY. I pretty sure it says Pechulen, but could be Pechurin. Now I'm interested in the kanji...

 

Roy Kamen Chaji Guy, I don't know if you were around for the discussions on our board about the futility of translating the kanji. David Wong gave us quite a lesson on it. What I got from that discussion was that the meanings of the writings are tied to the time in history, geographical location, political situation and intent of the individual who wrote it. I hope I am clear... it was a very long discussion and David Wong went into very specific detail.

 

Peter Swallow Is any kata about fighting? Oyo bunkai, being application of kata is about fighting.

 

Roy Kamen Yes, Kata is primarily an energy management system. It also has built in it a path to character development, some say "enlightenment". IMHO the only way to reach the higher spiritual levels is to approach each kata as if it were a life and death encoun...See More

 

Dan Antonsen Came across these old pictures tonight and remembered this post. The pictures where taken in 1995 and show Dai Sensei Meitoku Yagi explaining about Suparinpei and Pechurin. He said Pechurin was the older kata and that all Suparinpei is contained within Pechurin. If you look at the kanji for each you can see this is also the case. This is what Dai Sensei was pointing out. This is Dai Sensei's own handwriting also. I don't normally comment but I thought this was relevant.

 


 

Dan Antonsen Close up picture of the two different names





 

Tory Ellarson I'm starting to think that no one has any idea what Peichurin actually means or how it's written. There's been a few writings suggested so far in this thread.


Linguistically the one on the left makes no sense for either. It has the same meaning as Suparinpei but it's just the pa pei part. (it's basically saying "hundred eight" instead of "one hundred and eight")


The one on the right is obviously supposed to be Suparinpei but what is the first Kanji? is that supposed to be the banking character?


I had heard that Peichurin was "
百招連" even then I'm pretty sure it's just someone's guess. But it works for the sounds and has a meaning in line with traditional Chinese martial terminology.

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