Hi Mario,
It looks like I am a broken CD too,
for it seems to me that the discussion on power generation and hip movement is not over yet.
You wrote:
"I understand the concept of maximum application of force in a short instant as found in san chin kata but think (as many of you do) that this concept was misunderstood. With my limited experience in Tou'on and Goju, I find the concepts the same but their application very different."
In what way this concept was misunderstood ?
In what way the concepts are the same, but their application very different in both cases?
And: "but san chin is a tanren kata – a form meant to condition the body mentally and physically. The breathing is natural and not forced as in ibuki. The entire body is "shut" i.e. tensed with particular emphasis on the lower abdomen and the position of the pelvis. Tensed, but not tight as to be rigid. When the body core is stabilized through san chin training and one's movements become 2nd nature, then I believe this kind of training develops an explosive power if learned correctly."
You have described the training which certainly sets the body in right condition, but what kind of movement exactly develops explosive power when learned correctly?
In your next post "Power 2X" you mentioned: "I hope that I have not conveyed the wrong idea. Rotation of the torso / pelvis is important to the generation of power in general. The whipping of the hips is another matter and has to be approached with a lot of caution."
It looks that we all agree that hip movement plays some important role in power generation. Ron and Steve conveyed some interesting ideas in their comments.
Here are my thoughts on the subject:
In my 32 years of training, last half of this period was heavily associated with this question. In the first part I haven't even noticed how important this concept is. In the second part the mist began to disappear gradually, but not without much effort.
It seems to me that there are two types of hip movement. To identify them we can use your descriptions: "rotation of the torso/pelvis" is one type (1), "whipping of the hips" is the other (2).
Both are actually rotation of the hips, but in the first one the rotating hip reaches the front position as the target is hit (actually all the parts of the body reach this most advanced position at the same time), and in the second, the hip is whipped to the front and returned to the original position immediately, this move being an incentive of the rest of the movement of upper torso, shoulders and arms, which hit the target a split second after the hips had already done their job.
The first type is probably what Kanzaki Sensei tried to emphasize as "max power generated by the whole body". The second one is "the whipping movement of Shorin ryu, an anomaly that doesn't help the power of the strike" and which, I feel, a lot of Goju people also use in their Kata, not to mention majority of Kobudo practitioners.
I would tend to agree that in the second case (2) the impact power is not the result of the whole body, but mostly of the upper part, which was, in turn, set in motion by the lower part. But it is not quite clear if such a move produces less power than (1). There is probably less mass involved, but maybe more speed. And kinetic energy is the result of mass and speed. If one of these is lacking, the outcome can be compensated with complimenting the other.
For those from our list who have not tried it yet (maybe there are none) I suggest the following experiment which can save us a lot of unnecessary theorizing, and clearly show us some facts (the theory is only good if we don't have any practice at hand : I don't need much theory when my teacher Nakamatsu is before me, and you, Mario, don't need anything else but to watch and feel when with Kanzki Sensei).
The experiment is very simple: during next training session face the makiwara and do 10 repetitions of full power reverse punch in Sanchin dachi, using the principle (1), which will tend to push makiwara a little more to the front, and then do 10 repetitions with principle (2), which will tend to bounce your striking fist back from the board instantly.
The board will give in less in the second case, but regarding the power, I'm not quite sure. In the second case I have a feeling of superior speed and damage done to the surface of the target, in the first case I have a feeling of a heavy mass working deeply on the target.
But isn't it, that we want to strike the vital points on which we are trying to produce a "shock" (atemi waza), and we are not after making holes in the body? The second principle's impact is working on a very short path, nearly a point, which is actually the very last part of the road along which the moving mass travels, but the speed can afford to be great because the breaking system is better: return movement of the hip.
This final point is called focus, and it disappears immediately. If it lasts for a friction, it is lesser focus. If we take a look at the optics and consider focus of light rays produced by convex lens, if the focus is sharp, it can produce a lot of heat and fire up a paper. If sun rays are not gathered in a single point, no fire. It doesn't matter if it's a very sunny day (although it helps).
Some more theorizing about the whip movement as opposed to generating power "with the whole body" : Whip, as a device, is soft, pliable thing. In most cases, the only solid part is the handle, and more to the tip you go, more it is supple. When you whip at something you vigorously swing the handle towards the target, and even more vigorously pull it back instantly, and when the tip of the whip touches the target, the handle is well back home (in starting position). And the effect of the tip touching something is awesome, especially if you are on the receiving end. It even produces a sound (kiai ?) when whipped in the air.
It seems to me that human body has some similarity with the whip. It is not such a rigid structure as, for example, parts of car's engine: piston moving on the rod, this connected to the crank, all made of iron and the hardest alloy, and thus moving simultaneously. Piston is moving first, driven by the explosion in the cylinder, pushing the rod down, and this in turn pushing the crank and causing rotation of the later. Now, they are all moving simultaneously because they are stiff. You may try to achieve such rigidity with your body, and move like that, but isn't this a tendency to sacrifice relaxation, pliability and speed with it. On the other hand, whipping motion requires absolute relaxation and is in vain without it (Ron was talking about this).
This extreme relaxation is maybe the prerequisite for faster beginning of the whole action which might compensate the impression of time loss while whipping hips a friction of a second before striking compared to seemingly faster compact move "in one piece".
All this may sound like I'd stepped on the side of the second (whipping) principle with both of my feet. But it's not true. I know some Shotokan guys who use the first principle, and some Uechi colleagues, who do not use much hip movement at all, but they can produce power to be desired with their punches. No need for much theorizing here. My ribs and stomach are extremely convinced. So, I'm trying to approach the question of both concepts the same way as you, Mario, cautiously. The fog is not completely lifted.
Yet, I know Shinzato Katsuhiko Sensei of whom I had written a few words previously. He is around 66 of years now, and I have never seen somebody so fast, relaxed and effective. Especially when it comes down to continuous technics where one punch is merged with the other, where one technic (block, strike or whatever) flows into another. It looks like artillery barrage or Uzi machine gun fired at the opponent.
During some demonstrations, when the opponent is strong and capable, you've got the feeling that you are watching cobra fighting mungo. Cobra, although bigger and fast, still doesn't have a chance with mungo. Shinzato Sensei is master "par excellence" of hipping hip motion. He concentrates all of his training and teaching around concepts of "koshi" and relaxation.
Interesting enough, this can all be very much associated with last Victor's and Fernando's post "Soken". Shinzato is a senior student (the other one being Toshihiro Oshiro) of Kishaba Chokei and the heir of his Shorin ryu Kishaba Juku. He told a very similar story as appears in Victor's post: Kishaba was training with Nagamine for a number of years, and at some point, went to Soken (with Nagamine approval, or even arrangement of this connection) to learn his "secrets". Actually he went there together with Nakamura Seigi, his sempai and friend.
After the two were with Soken for a couple of years they had no ambition any more to return to Nagamine, which brought some strain in their relationship. The former two continued to train on their own after Soken's death and further developed the style, which was actually Nagamine's Matsubayashi ryu, but heavily influenced by Soken's concepts of movement and power generation. According to Shinzato, Kishaba credited the genius of his sempai Nakamura for most of the innovations in the style which was later called Shorin ryu Kishaba Juku. Nakamura was extremely talented gymnast in his youth (reportedly an Okinawan champion in this discipline) and in total control of his body-mechanics.
Shinzato is also a student of Bo with Kishaba's elder brother Chogi, who is still alive. He considers Kishaba Chogi an utmost authority on Yamene ryu Bo jutsu. This later one is very old now and very reluctant to take any students, having only one or two. He was like that most of his life, that's why he is nearly unknown outside the most initiated circles. He is also expert in Goju ryu, actually Miyagi's student. But Shinzato never mentioned any influence on his "koshi" from this side. "I'm only continuing my teacher Kishaba Choke's work" he says. And this may well be the continuation of Soken Hohan's work.
In America, John Donahue is considered to be Shinzato's student, as well as Charles C. Goodin of Hawai. Some more info on Shinzato and the style is found on his site : "http://hikari.us/"
This last part was a little out of the subject, but maybe interesting for somebody. I hope we'll continue to talk about body dynamics and hip motion ocasionally, for as I said before, fog is not lifted yet (in my case)
.
Wow, this was a long one. I hope everybody has not fallen asleep while reading it. I'll shut up now for next year or so.
Warmest regards,
Milan
Hi Milan,
Quite an interesting commentary.
I recall in the late 70’s when I first realized my knowledge of my own stances need great work and began a study of who was doing what I began to notice some people’s use of the hips in their technique. Prior to that I was oblivious to the role that the ‘hips’ would hold. I was living a distance from my original instructor and training myself, but when I did get the chance to watch him critically, I observed his stances were stronger than any I had seen in Isshinryu and resolved to work very hard on this.
One thing led to another and for some time I consciously was working my hip movement with my striking, the first version that you mentioned. But it wasn’t an inbred motion, one I consciously had to adopt to use.
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