Sunday, January 15, 2023

Long Past discussion about what the Isshinryu Secret Scrolls were

 


 

How many remember the discussions 25 years ago about the secred scrolls of Isshinryu? Often the “Secret Scrolls” were referemced with little idea what theywere. Then it becamc clear they referenced the Shimabuku Kumite which was unevenly taught on Okinawa, as they were among the last studies taught and many Marines moved on before they were taught.

 

 

 

Andy Sloane You mean Tatsuo's Kumite?

 

Victor Donald Smith I was in Issshinryu 30 years when I discoved the internet. The TS kumite was not our tradition.

 

I had never heard of the scrolls before, as I lived for the most part away from others in Issinryu it never came up. There was a great deal of speculation about what they were. But the TS kumite was never mentioned. Later it came up, I first became aware of it through Sherman Harrill.

 

Andy Sloane Armstrong Sensei was the only one, to my knowledge, th

at called them Secret Scrolls. The Kumite techniques were written on the scrolls.

 

Andy Sloane It's interesting that Sensei Lewis didn't learn them while in Okinawa but Sensei Ed Johnson did.

 

J.R. Aiello Interesting in what way? It would seem to make sense that Master Shimabuku would trust some people over others. If they really were secret, not everyone know them.

 

Andy Sloane They weren't really secret. They were listed on the chart on the wall as the last thing to learn.

 

J.R. Aiello Ahhh... Were Lewis and Johnson there at the same time? Maybe they went up later?

 

Andy Sloane Some guys just didn't have long enough on the island to learn them. Some started later in their tour and just didn't have enough time left to learn them.

 

Andy Sloane Sensei Lewis started in about August 1959 and left in October 1960. Sensei Johnson started in December 1959 and left in February 1961.

 

Andy Sloane Sensei Harrill started in about the spring of 1959 and left in May 1960.

Victor Donald Smith Some of th techniques Lewis Sensei taught are the same. But I know his unit did TDY to Japan for a while. When Charles Murray t aimed in Agena in 1972 they were not being done by the Okinawans while he was there. A different paradigm was used by Lewis Sensei.

 

Victor Donald Smith The term Secret Scrolls was being used on the Internet by those who discussed Isshinryu.

 

Victor Donald Smith There are many diffirent paradigm to teaching Isshinryu, Different does not mean less effective. I was never taught but to train hard, Isshinryu was not an experience to find new ways. Nothing wrong, but at the same time, not necessarily right either.

 

Dan Aaron Secret? So, do you have them to share? I would like to take a look, or at least know what they are in english, please. Thank you.

 

Andy Sloane Sensei Armstrong says on p. 62 of his book that he got to begin learning Tatsuo Sensei's Kumite (self-defense techniques) on his last day on Okinawa. They were never secret. They were simply the last items in Tatsuo Sensei's curriculum. They were written on a scroll, apparently. Sensei Advincula has said that he wrote them down in English in a way that he could understand them when he learned them in 1959. He said that he and the late Rodney Kiaha used to do them for the demonstrations.

 

Andy Sloane This photo shows the order of the Isshin-ryu curriculum in the Agena dojo c. 1958-c. 1961.

SAYA is Kyan no Sai. Kyan no Sai was eventually supplanted by Kusanku Sai by about 1960 and was no longer taught as a separate kata.

BOO is Tokumine no Kun. (The double O is how the Okinawans sometimes elongate the O sound when writing words in English. It is not pronounced like what we say a ghost might say.)

As you can see, Kumite (aka the "Secret Scroll(s)") is last.

  

 


  

Victor Donald Smith Dan, I haven't looked at those notes for some time, all I can locate at this time is the attacks being countered.

 


01 How to counter basic grabs
02 How to counter punching attacks
03 Striking the back of an attacking fist
04 Special blocking techniques
05 How to grab and control the attacker
06 How to counter the Gi Grab
07 How to counter the Full Nelson
08 How to counter the Bear Hug
09 How to counter the Devil’s handshake
10 How to counter chokes (including from the mount position)
11 How to counter a straight stab
12 How to counter an ice pick stab
13 How to counter a straight stab with both hands up
14 How to counter a straight stab leaning forward
15 How to counter double knife stabs

In their way similar to the approach Patrick McCarthy much later adopted breaking defensive techniques into 36 sorts of attacks. If you follow AJ Advincula he often shares them on his FB site.

 

 

Andy Sloane Dan Aaron, this is the list of the 45 Kumite techniques that Tatsuo Sensei taught (as written by Sensei Advincula):

1(a) Left hand hold right wrist.
  (b) Two hands hold one wrist.
  (c) Left hand hold right hand, from side position.
  (d) Right hand hold right wrist.
  (e) Right hand hold right wrist from top.

2(a) Outside block, punch inside.
  (b) Inside block, punch side.
  (c) Step forward punch.
  (d) Shoulder block.
  (e) Grab arm, elbow.

3(a) Punch back of hand top.
  (b) Punch back of hand side.
  (c) Punch back of hand knuckle.
 
4(a) Knuckle block for kick, counter kick.
  (b) Cross arm block.
  (c) Left hand push right leg inside counter kick.
  (d) Knee block, kick.
  (e) Grab leg, grab Adam's apple, trip punch.

5(a) Hold arm, use against punch.
  (b) Left kick.
  (c) Right kick.
  (d) Twist.

6(a) One hand hold gi, grab, twist, kick.
  (b) Two hand hold gi, push kick.
  (c) Trip two feet kick.
  (d) Trip, choke hold, kick face.

7(a) Full Nelson, karate cut groin.
  (b) Full Nelson, grab leg, heel kick.
  (c) Full Nelson, grab both legs, karate cut groin.
  (d) Back neck breaker and choke hold, cut groin.

8(a) Bear hug waist, hands free, grab one finger break, or hit back of hand
  (b) Bear hug around arms and waist, grab groin.
  (c) Head lock, grab groin and one shoulder break.
  (d) Head lock, knuckle in side.
  (e) Head lock, jerk shoulders up, kick legs out in front.

9(a) Devil's handshake, grab your fist, pull, kick.
 (b) Double Devil's handshake, twist over, elbow kick.
 
10(a) Two hand straight choke, break, grab Adam's apple.
  (b) Cross arm choke, one arm and shoulder up between his arms and grab Adam's apple.
  (c) Smother hold, knuckles in side.

11. Straight stab, grab hand and wrist, twist, kick, trip, kick.

12. Ice pick stab, block across, kick.

13. Straight stab, both hands up, karate cut block, kick.

14. Straight stab leaning forward, grab hands with both of yours, pull, knee elbow.

15. Two knife straight stab, squat kick.

 

Okinawa Budo Kai Ohhh yes. Propagated by Sensei Steve Armstrong. Right up there with his announcement. Of his promotion to Judan from an an envelope he opened many years after leaving Okinawa wink emoticon

 

Andy Sloane I thought he said that Tatsuo Sensei gave him the rank certificate in 1966 to claim at a later time.

 

Okinawa Budo Kai He may have claimed that. I was at the tournament in the 80's when he unveiled it. It was like the old Johnny Carson skit with Karnack. The envelope was stored in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnles porch for 20 years. This was the date it was to be opened, then....OMG!...it was a Judan certif signed & sealed my Shimabuku Tatsuo himself. Everyone was ecstatic! (except for a few of us who live in reality). Turns out Steve Armstrong was the Secretary for the AOKA on Okinawa. He had Tatsuo Sensei hanko & sign several blank rank certificates. After Tatsuo Sensei passed , gee...who may have had them. The certificate facts I was told by a 1st Gen student who was given 1st Dan thru 5th certifs by these folks all signed & sealed by Tatsuo Shimabuku (after his death). I guess that led the way for all the premature high rank in Isshinryu.

 

Andy Sloane Originally, Sensei Mitchum was the President, Sensei Armstrong was the Vice President, and Sensei Frank Van Lenten was the Secretary. That organizational structure changed in October and November 1960 when all three of these men left Okinawa. Only Sensei Mitchum returned to Okinawa (May 1961).

 

Tom Fearfield Gentlemen..i have been tasked this year by my sensei to learn all i can with accuracy the history of isshinryu..this is therefore something i take quite seriously..as i read the dialog between you it seems that you are not convinced that sensei mitchum...See More

 

John Kerker As usual the need to embellish the truth and make things more than they ever needed to be are more prevalent in Isshinryu than what should count.....no one that served only one 11 month tour learned all the kumite.... There was nothing secret....they are simple self defense techniques.... I teach them in the kids class....training in the Dojo with Mr Harrill I would say we did a little more than half of them....he didn't name them as Kumite techniques, but simply they were Shimabuku Tatsuo's application from kata...in 1998 Mr Harrill went to California to train with Tokumura Kensho Sensei and A.J. Advincvula Sensei......during the week he was out there part of what they did was go through the Tatsuo Kumite...... He came back to the Dojo very excited and went through them all with myself and John Peterson. He told us that we already practiced over half of the, but now the rest would be added....they are an important part of Isshinryu and are easy to learn.

 

Andy Sloane I never questioned the validity of Sensei Mitchum's promotion. We were discussing Sensei Armstrong's rank.

 

John Kerker I thought we were talking about the Tatsuo Kumite, as usual the discussion devolves to rank and how people were promoted

 

Andy Sloane That too, Sensei John Kerker.

 

John Kerker Guys, we need to let go of all that

 

Andy Sloane How and when our pioneers got their ranks is all a part of our history, warts and all. We should be able to have discussion about it at this late a date without it devolving to insults and sore feelings. I know I'm able to. Surely there are others who can as well.

 

John Kerker It's the least important part of our history.

 

Andy Sloane To some, maybe. But not discussing it helps no one understand why we are where we are today.

 

John Kerker We are were we are because some people took advantage of Shimabuku Tatsuo and embellished the truth...that has no bearing on the training or Isshinryu.

 

Andy Sloane That is one way of looking at it.

 

John Kerker That's the simple truth Andy it's undeniable and sad but the truth, so best to train and forget the BS. How people inflated and embellished rank has nothing to do with what Shimabuku Tatsuo taught....

 

Andy Sloane Yes, I wonder if anyone has a picture of that rank certificate. He also claimed to have had two tours on Okinawa and that he was a black belt in two styles of karate before training in Isshinryu; his service record proves otherwise.

 

Dan Aaron Thank you everyone for that useful information. It is a big help!

 

Andy Sloane You're welcome, Dan Aaron. As you can see, the "Secret Scrolls", were not really secret.

 

Keith Taylor All this talk of secret or sacred scrolls makes me skeptical. There are no "secrets" are some things hidden and obfuscated in the forms ? Sure, that is an asian thing, but when it comes down to it, a hard natural fighter with minimal training can be a...See More

 

Tom Fearfield Monkey takes the peach may work? Lol

 

Victor Donald Smith When the discussions on Isshinryu began in the internet it was a far different time. Many well intentioned people attempted to understand what the idea of the “Secret Scrolls” meant. There were those who trained in the self defense techniques. But they were focused on training those who could press the flesh and not gain short cuts. There was also a great deal of information hording to. It was not apparent in those discussions where the term originated.

This was before
YouTube was available, and the records on Video Tape were often not available to many.

Interestingly, one of the available records was the 2 Self Defense video tapes of Angi Uezu Self Defense. They have never made it to youtube but I made personal notes for myself. I recently shared them on my blog at
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/.../uzeu-angi...

One YouTape video of interest found is Knife self defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgmKZQPi5_E

I have never made the time to compare them, but many of the moves are similar.

 

Isshin - Concentration the Art: Uezu Angi Self Defense Techniques Panther Video

isshin-concentration.blogspot.com|By Victor Smith

 

http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2016/02/uzeu-angi-self-defense-techniques.html

Victor Donald Smith As for secrets there certainly are those. Anything I know and you don't is a secret. Some might be simply that I don't trust some people to have them, some might be that more training is required before you can realisticly execite this properly. That is something many do not appreciate. IMO much bunkai should not be taught as openly because the individuals are not properly prepared to make it work. Just because someone wants something, is no reason that it should be shared. The issue is more complex than simple quotes.

 

Keith Taylor That is certainly true , but I think more than a bit of it is hyped. There are no guarantees in true combat. The Marines generally win in combat because of superior training,skills and ethos, but many Marines have died as well. Even the best trained and most skilled special operators get killed. All the opponent has to do is get lucky with the skills, as meager as they might be, they have on hand. The battlefield is not a dojo or kumite. As for the few real world experiences I have had, it was basics that got me through, not any special technique, however , I did have knowledge through training of simple things and how to apply them properly, perhaps that is what we really mean by "secrets".

 

Dan Aaron I understand your point...kinda like if you are not mature enough for the material covered , then you can not execute it properly, and your technique could look terrible. I also a firm believer that the techniques that where described in another language has something to do with it as well. When you do not know the full meaning of the words and their context, then you do not fully understand how to apply the techniques.

 

John Kerker The technique is trained through kihon and kata which is a universal language. If taught properly little explanation is need


 

https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2022/07/tatsuos-kumite-by-master-john.html

 

https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2021/03/isshinryus-secret-scrolls.html

 

 

 

 

 

No comments: