A couple of things about Tora Guchi (Tiger Mouth)

 

 

A couple of things about Tora Guchi (Tiger Mouth), we do it different ways. Chinen Sensei once had us doing it where the hands come in close together then flaired out. "Like tiger eating a baby pig". He called this Blooming Lotus. He is also educated some in Chinese methods so his teaching may not be pure but borrowing concepts from Chinese Systems. I learned a Bagau drill from him ( he called it Tea Cup exercise) and he implements its teachings in Seisan.

Sometimes the hands are centerline of body. Sometimes hands are lined up off the hip and shoulder. Sometimes the hands are flat with fingers together. Sometimes the fingers are like tiger claws. Depends on the lesson at that time I guess.

Good teachers seem to like to relay the idea that our art is deep and not wide. We do not practice many forms compared to Kung Fu systems ( or Shi To Ryu ) but there seem to be endless variations of what we do. One time Kimo Sensei was teaching us Kakuho and what he was teaching was different form what he taught some of the same people earilier in Wisconsin. Some of the non Goju guys had trouble with this. He started to explain both were valid and showed some more variations. He said to see Matayoshi's entire Kakuho would take either 8 days or 8 hours. I think it was 8 days. I assume Chinese teachers use the same teaching methods.

The applications are very many with this move. All you need from Goju can be found in Tora Guchi is my mantra. Thus all you need is Sanchin I tell my students. ( because it has tora guchi).

All the applications you mentioned are included in our repertoire. There are others. Some are incredibly gruesome. One being that you use the technique to literally tear off a man's face. Fishhook and rip the flesh of the face cheeks. That one kind of took me by surprise when I was taught that. I thought to my self, hell Sensei that is is little extreme isn't it. Apparently some teachers believe a long time ago ( there were no plastic surgeons long time ago) if someone fought you then you wanted the whole community to know what can happens to people when they fight you. So, you disfigured their face.

I have wondered at times if the original boxing system that came from Kumemura was a tiger based boxing system. I have no idea or basis for this other than the tiger speaks to me more in our 4 core forms than the crane. Maybe they are all there but the tiger resides in me more than the crane does and it is through me the animal manifests itself. Sorry I am tired and starting to get weird on you.

As far as why we end all of our forms with Tora Guchi. I still think it goes back to India some how. The top hand is the stopping hand the bottom hand is the helping hand. We can help our fellow man and would prefer to do so. But if necessary we can kill.

I promise not to post anymore Indian statue pictures.

Sorry for rambling on about a bunch of silly things. Have a nice weekend everyone.

 

Ed Boyd – CEB

 

 

 

Hi Ed,

Maybe this is the wrong place to be talking about this but since you brought it up, I will post here.

Forms – the embedded objectives;

• Collection of techniques. I think this is, by far, the most widespread function spanning many styles from many cultures. Even non-ritualized routines like in Western Boxing, in my book, amount to a form. I have seen boxing coaches teaching students their favorite routines and the transmission is just like a traditional form. How to move the body, release energies and even rhythm.

• Mimicking a certain spirit or “shape”. Not so prevalent in Okinawan/Japanese systems but very common in Chinese, Indian and Malay fighting systems. In some Chinese styles, this is presented in an almost storytelling concepts. I know of a Fukien Shaolim Tiger form that start with Tiger awakening, emerging from cave, hunt for preys, meeting/fighting other predators and finally killing a prey. A day in the life of a tiger, so to speak…hahahaha In Hsing Yi, you’ll find forms representing interactions of the 5 elements using the same “storytelling” model. This “storytelling” tradition is even carried in “Lion Dancing”. To the uninitiated, “Lion Dancing” is simply “dancing” but the truth is every traditional dance comes complete with a “story” some not easily understood by those not familiar with Chinese mythologies.

• In my Fuzhou Crane, every form teaches 1 fighting principles. The techniques, now, are “by-products” of the principles. The principles are the quintessence of the founder’s creation. Take a form like “4th Gate” for instance; the “techniques” aren’t effective unless used in conjunction with taking the 4th gate position against the opponent. You move to his 4th gate or you “force” his gate by burying his hands into his centerline, sort of like Wing Chun’s centerline theory.

The idea of “Bunkai” is traditionally done in most CKF in the form of 2-men set. You learn the solo form first and then move on to do a 2-men routine with techniques from the solo set.

A very good example would be Praying Mantis “Ben Bo”. In Chin Woo, you must learn the solo and 2-men to be considered as knowing this form.

My wife’s Chou Jia does the same. I am amazed by the number of 2-men routines that they do. Almost one after every form, empty-handed or weapons.

In more “modernized” CKF training like my Tai Chi, we doing pre-arranged sparring using techniques from the forms learned.

One underlining concept in Tai Chi is the “father-son” hands or twin-attack hands. Could be as straightforward as one punch to the face and another to the solar-plexus. We would “spar” with technique like this almost every training session.

This is done is almost every possible scenario imaginable; after blocking a kick, ducking and weaving and launching father-son and even as an offensive move.

Thanks………

 

 

I am bringing this over from the staff thread I hope that is OK. Eric makes good points. I am especially drawn to the comments regarding dance and storytelling.

It has been said Okinawian Te owes much of its legacy to Okinawian Odori or folk dancing. The folk dances are used as a form of storytelling. A form that is consider by many to be the oldest existing Okinawian martial form, Sakugawa nu Kun is said to have come from a bo Odori ( stick dance).

Indian classical dance does the same storytelling type of function. Indian dancing decends from the dancing done by the temple girls. The prudish Victorian British who had no idea of the culture they were dealing with had mistaken them as prostitutes wiped out the temple dancing practices. I fear a lot of historical knowledge may have been lost. I am still looking for information on the subject.

I would like to answer your post Evert and do justice to it but I have not much time due to work maybe Sunday I can get to it.

Regard in Mawashi Uke/Tora Guchi. Karate people often interpret Uke as meaning block. I do not like this personally. I know it is just semantics but I still don't care for it. A more correct translation is to recieve. The techniques are designed to recieve, punches, kicks, grabs, pushes etc... all sorts of incoming energy. Including all the applications you inquired about and they are all there.

I got to get to work. Everyone have a good weekend.

 

Hi Ed,

Love the way this thread is turning out.

The way it should be, IMHO.

Martial Arts, especially Asian, have very intimate ties with other aspects of culture.

I am talking about dances, philosophies and religions. And I think being a serious forum, we should probe.

The techniques “Child Holding Plate” comes in 2 versions in the Fukien tradition:-

• Some schools call this “Red Child Holding Plate”. “Red Child” is a Chinese mythical figure like “Na Cha”, the other child mythical character. When I was a kid, I was told that this posture has got a certain “story” behind as depicted in some Chinese classic mythologies. I did not really follow-up on this as Chinese mythologies is not one of my objectives. Maybe I would do it now and that is if I can still find those classics, hopefully a comic version so that I don’t have to struggle with antiquated Chinese hahahaha.

• We also got the more common “Child Holding Plate”. The significance? Well, I was taught one version. How many of you have seen a Chinese funeral procession? The Chinese, especially Doaists, have got very elaborate funeral wakes and procession to the burial (or cremation these days) site. A typical wake is 7 days long with round after round of religious rituals etc etc… The funeral procession is another biggie with the Chinese. If the deceased is a senior in the clan or family, his/her coffin would be carried by pall-bearers for long distances before being mounted onto the vehicle. Kung Fu Sifus are buried with special lion dancing. The eldest son of the deceased would be the one to carry the altar plate with the deceased’s name and family line carved on. These days, this would more likely be a picture of the deceased. So “Child Holding Plate” is a display of filial piety. So in Kung Fu, to end the form with this posture symbolizes paying respect to your founder and all the deceased ancestors before you.

• Shaolin do this posture to signify their philosophy of power and love must be embodied in one. The upper hand says; I am able to heal (love) you. The lower hand is saying the opposite and that is I am able to destroy you. Older Shaolin lines still take this posture very seriously. And if you’ve been to a Buddhist temple with the 4 Guardians, you would find one with this posture. I “grew up” in a Shaolin temple and still remember these statues. Very big and tall (almost reaching the temple high ceiling) and fearsome looking.

Ed, love the way you say “receive” and not blocking. This is exactly how we do it in Ancestral Crane. More “withdrawing” rather that “receiving” and going with “swallowing and sinking” concepts.
In Hung Gar, this is an all-purpose block/deflect. At least that was how I was taught. By circling the hands, one after the other and covering the upper and middle gate, theoretically you are warding any attacks to those zones.

The other interesting variation is done in Shorinji-Kempo whereby they do upper/middle hand guard and with the knee raised to cover the lower gate.

A Swiss-knife technique hahahaha………  Eric Ling