Thursday, June 15, 2023

Discussion on the myth of "kime"

  

Sensei Tajima, Kishaba Juku/Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Demonstrating his hip movement in Naihanchi Kata.

 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sRJYj3XrzE

 

 

Hi  all others involved in this discussion,

I know this has gone off the track from the originally submitted article, which I really enjoyed BTW, Mr Khirakis. It was very refreshing and gave much to consider.

( BTW this video has been removed from YouTube)

Yeah, R*****, I'm not sure how Shinzato's BBTV footage made it Youtube. I had been trying to capture it myself, for the record, and couldn't figure out how to do it from the BBTV site. LOL Anyway, since I was fortunate enough to be given the honor of being accepted as a dojo student of Shinzato Sensei, I thought I might be able to throw a little input into this discussion, being somewhat familiar with their methods.  

(This footage is no longer available so the videos I have posted show similar principles of Kashiba Juku)


Regarding Koshi: Koshi (not "koshi") is a proprietary method of whole body mechanics originally taught by Kishaba Chokei Sensei, who unfortunately is no longer with us. Today, it is still being taught and advanced by Shinzato Katsuhiko Sensei. Koshi is not about the isolated movement of a single body part (hips, small of the back), but rather, it is compression, squeezing, expanding, contracting, shaking, wringing manipulation of the whole body with emphasis of the entire pelvic carriage in order to make your karate work efficiently and smoothly. We also incorporate the lats and sides of the body. (We are told to open doors, drink beer, play golf, yawn etc, with Koshi. LOL)

Gamaku is different than Koshi in that it emphasizes the sides of the body to make compression and/or movement. One without the other will not be sufficient. For purposes of convenience though, I'm going to use gamaku as a synonymous term (thought Koshi is more inclusive), because gamaku as a methodology may be more available for people to learn than Koshi. If you want to learn about gamaku, you should attend a seminar by Oshiro Sensei. Koshi is only available to those students of Shorinryu Kishaba Juku. To
say "Isshinryu uses Koshi" causes a laugh fest LOL

When he was in NYC this past year, I asked Sensei about "Chinkuchi, Gamaku and Koshi." He pretty much offered the cursory explanation of the two above, but said he didn't know about chinkuchi. I had to appreciate the fact that he was honest about this, rather than feeling obligated to come up with answers to things he knew little or nothing about, as is the case of some others.

R***** mentioned Arakaki's book, and this is indeed about the only place (that I know of, at least) where the term "gamaku" has ever been discussed in print in any detail. (Just for the record, and Rich Ruberto can verify this, gamaku was never even mentioned in a Isshin context before I brought it up on a public forum at one point, then suddendly "Isshinryu used both methods." Oh, really?? How convenient! <rant mode off>). What he discusses in the book is very much beginner stuff and is very simplified, pretty much limited only to discussing horizontal 2-dimensional movements.

 Gamaku and Koshi are much more complicated than this, and also as Victor points out, the obvious exaggerated motions are for beginners and demonstration only. Back to Arakaki for a minute, chinkuchi and gamaku are two diametrically different methodologies, and as such, they CANNOT BE USED SIMULTANOUSLY IN ANY GIVEN SINGLE TECHNIQUE. As Arakaki says, "you cannot throw a ball overhand and underhand at the same time." Anyone who went past a 3rd grade reading skill level can understand what this means. As you cannot be turn a car right and left at the same time when you come to a tee in the road, or as you can not be in two different places at the same time, you cannot combine chinkuchi and gamaku in one technique. Steve, given the above, I don't possibly see how you can do a "gamaku-like chinkuchi," or vice versa. It's either got to go one way or another. I would submit that what you are actually doing is some variation of either one.


R*****, I don't think that there are "gamaku techniques" and "chinkuchi techniques." Once you truly understand these for what they really are (and you can't learn these from the book, in a 2 or 3 day seminar, despite what some preach to keep the naive, uneducated masses at their feet) you will realize that they just don't turn on and off at will. You don't "put the chinkuchi (or gamaku) where you need it." Then what immediately after? I would say you should do either chinkuchi or gamaku consistantly.

There is no "chinkuchi is driving, gamaku is snappy" punching stuff. Retire that whole line of thought to describe the differences Strikes using either method can be percussive, concussive, impulse-type, cutting,
penetrating depending on the target and intent.

Shinzato Sensei says he is still working on his Koshi 30 years later, and that he is still not very good at. Yet there are Isshin people who "use both." Who do you believe really understands gamaku, and from whom would you rather learn?

But the question remains, "Can you use each in different places in a kata for any given technique?" Well, given what I've been taught, I would not suggest it, but then again I'm not prodigous by any stretch. I personally have gone the Koshi route because for me it's something I can continue to do when I'm 68 years old like Shinzato Sensei was in that TV clip. The scary thing about Sensei is that he's better at 68 than he was in his 50's. All I can do is shake is my head (with Koshi, of course LOL).

Victor, regarding Naihanchi as being the "end of all kata." I don't know of anyone who would go that far. We say Naihanchi is our seminal kata in that everything has it's roots in Naihanchi, as Sanchin is the core ofGoju. Chinto is after all, just real fancy Naihanchi. Besides, we'd get bored doing nothing but Naihanchi all day long. :-) They powers that be don't like Gojushiho too much. They prefer Passai and Rohai instead. They're technically much more difficult, even more so than KuSanKu, which  when you think about it is really not that difficult; it's just real long.


Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Ja, L**


PS. If anyone is going to forward this to anyone, please try to make sure that person has a beyond 3th grade reading comprehension level, so they don't take things out of context.

 

  

 

1986 visit to Shorinryu dojo of Katsuhiko Shinzato




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbHp6eFhH9s&t=276s

 

 

Impressions from visit to the Kishaba Juku Shorinryu Dojo

of Professor Katsuhiko Shinzato 9th dan in 2011.

 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glIeSBmBXY4

 

 

BASIC ELEMENTS OF KOSHI

SENSEI O'BRIEN I SHORIN-RYU.CA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYOwG-OfpAU

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