A discussion about what Kyan Chotoku taught.

 Hi Victor

 

You say:

 > In the recent story “Karate of Milk, the story of Shozen Sonabe, A student of Choto Kyan” in a recent issue of CFA, Charles Goodin relates the following story: ” he learned the remaining kata in the following order. 

(after spending 3 years on Seisan Kata- Victor):

Nihanchi Shodan, Nidan, Sandan

Ananku Sho (made by Kyan Sensei)

Ananku Dai (mado by Kyan Sendei)

Passai - Gojushiho – Chinto

Kusanku (Kyan Sensei’s version)

Now when we’ve discussed this in the past you told me Kyan Sensei didn’t teach Nihanchi. Was this true to his private students of just those who were public students in the Agricultural School and the Police Station.

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Hmm.. interesting.. no Wansu?

Much has been made (by Seibukan, esp.) of a difference between those taught at Kadena Ag College (ie Nakazato) and those at Kyan sensei's house. This of course is all designed to 'prove' Zenryo was the one true heir of Kyan.. because all his teaching was at the house, of course... :)

I asked Joen sensei about this and he explained he first encountered Kyan sensei (and indeed karate) at a public demonstration at Kadena Coll. in.. er let me think 1937 or 8 I think ..attended, according to him, by other well-known seniors and also karate people from the mainland. He said he was unsure of exactly who these folks (and never got to find out) because at the time it was his first experience, and he didn’t know who was supposed to be who or where they came from. He was very interested in what he saw and shortly after this he had the opportunity to join Kyan sensei's (first?) group class. At first there were many attendees, but numbers quickly dwindled down to a handful. According to him the remaining few boys were also offered the opportunity to visit Kyan sensei and train at his house. So yes he HAD started at the College but ALSO trained at the house, and indeed implied because he had the opportunity and not much else to do he was hence there more than anyone. He alluded to this in the context of his explanation of why he had Tokumine no kun from Kyan yet Zenryo didn't. (Nakazato passed it to the Seibukan line) 

Anyway, at this time or around this time he also lived only a few houses away from Kyan sensei in the village, renting a house that belonged to Kyan sensei's wife (or perhaps a first wife from before he went to Taiwan, I cant remember) An aside here is that I think I'm right in saying property passed through the female line and I have some recollection of the divorce having something to do with avoiding personal debt he had accumulated as a ruse to protect the property.. 

I digress...  

So, when asked about the supposed difference between school and house student he kind of scoffed and said he trained at Kyan sensei's house "every day" and apart from the lads from school who were also there it was while training at the house where he met the others, Tatsuo, Zenryo, and Okuhara Bunei, who was a youth slightly older than himself. They trained in the same methods. 

Now, to Naifanchi: Nakazato did not witness Kyan performing or teaching Naifanchi at any time between him starting training in the Spring of 38 till Nakazato was drafted in (memory don't fail me!) Feb (I think) 1944.  I don't have my notes but I'm sure he said the last time he'd seen Kyan was in the December 1943. 

Now, Zenryo supposedly was also there "10 years" - though I suspect it was less, and certainly not constantly because as Nakazato said of Zenryo "actually he wasn't there all that much, he was always so busy with his business(es)".  Regardless of the exact duration (I think Zenryo left Kyan's company earlier, perhaps in late 41 to become (depending on accounts either an aircraft spotter or working in a munitions (?) factory) yet despite *all* this time, HE ALSO didn't get any naifanchi from Kyan either, or my understanding was that Tatsuo's likely came some way via Motobu. None of *them* were taught it by Kyan regardless of where. 

As you probably know, later, Zenryo got his from Chozo Nakama (Chibana line) and Nakazato eventually adopted one he introduced via a student of his called Ishii, who came in from somewhere else and brought with him a Naifanchi believed at the time to be an authentic Shuri te kata. Nakazato adopted it, but subsequently questions about its lineage/authenticy were raised and it was eventually dropped in favor of a different naifanchi (one they still do) from an at least verifiable provenance via the Matsumura Orthodox Line... In other words, all these 3 main students and their schools all have a different naifanchi. because none of them knew of it being taught either at the college or the house during their era. 

Did Kyan ever have one? Nakazatio said YES, he would have, but he knew of nobody that would or could have had it, as even back in the 50s no Kyan version had survived to any knowledge on Okinawa.

Key: I asked Nakazato in that case WHY he felt the need to have a naifanchi, especially one not taught by Kyan, and he said the reason was he felt it was a useful kata (he wanted to see mine, - which was Nakamas I'd got from Zenpo sensei) and while he/they/none of them knew of ANY authentic transmitted naifanchi via Kyan he said he adopted one because it was "INCONCEIVABLE" that at some stage Kyan hadn't had one/practiced one. 

So he said yes Kyan WOULD HAVE had a naifanchi at some stage, but (my logic) apparently it wasn't being taught by the early-mid 30s, as despite Joen sensei being president of this that and the other and actively seeking a Kyan naifanchi, he/they with their combined experience didn't know anyone who had it or even the name of anyone specific who had *ever* had it. 

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>Also, what is Ananku Dai? I learned a version in the Shimabukuro Ezio lineage, with both vertical and twisting strikes and the movements in a somewhat different order, might this be dai or Ezio’s creation?

 

I don't know, Victor. sorry. I know Nagamine's Ananku appeared different to Shorinnji/Seibukan's but never sure where Nagamines came from. Nakazato didn’t subscribe to the view that Kyan had invented Ananku himself  (although it actually appears more as a kind of  "Seisan sho" to me) JN said he was told by kyan he'd got it from someone in Taiwan. Who knows maybe it WAS a Seisan or seisan sho that had evolved or had been edited in Taiwan. I don't know and neither did JN.   

 

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cheers then victor

love Harry

 

Hi Harry,

I must thank you for your responses to my questions.  You have such an understanding of your teachers training. I understand you don’t wish this to be more public because of Dan Smith’s pressures, but I really feel Nakazato’s teachings are closer to what Kyan offered than the Seibukan.  

Of course, I’m prejudiced because Nakazato’s closer to Isshinryu than others too.

You may find this interesting where Itoman in his “The Study of China Hand Techniques” about Touidi writes “Following, breaking and transcending involve a student first copying the form of his teacher and restraining himself from making any personal changes to it. Next, he breaks or separates his practice from that of his teacher trying to exceed him. Finally, he transcends his teacher’s instruction and finds his own unique military art. ‘ 

I believe this describes what Tatsuo did formatting his Isshinryu.  I wish we had access to the video (closed from us) of how Tatsuo was teaching in his 1964 visit to the states where he was using the turning fist, to see how similar it was to your teachers teachings. Eventually he returned to the vertical strike. But the host teacher who made the video’s left training years later and wouldn’t share them with his own students. I had one of them join my program a decade or so age, for a year or so, and it was interesting to watch his kata with turning strikes.

Itoman also had something interesting to share about kata, though his book wasn't a kata book.

P 68 Toudi Kata

..Two of the basic forms are sanshin (repeated steps) and sanchin (repeated hands). The former uses many leg techniques while the latter uses many hand techniques. There are three versions of sanshin kata and three versions of sanchin kata totaling six versions.

I can’t wait till someone starts showing sanchin soon now the book is published. Heh heh heh

So, we learn not to take the written stories to seriously. BTW I didn’t feel that Sunbe article was about building up Seibukan, just about Kyan’s teachings. There were many holes in its stories. IMO.

Thank you fo being you I wish we could meet, but with my Myasthenia Gravis slowing me down that is likely not possible.

Victor