When I was a beginner and I learned the
upper body charts Number 13.…
Nick Spartacus I was never a
fan of this technique and would never use it. Too much strain on the shoulder
and little behind it. Too many better options to choose. Just my opinion.
Matthew WhitleyNick Spartacus I would have to
respectfully disagree. If done correctly it shouldn't have any force/ strain in
the shoulders.
Matthew Whitley, if that option was open, an open ridge
hand to the throat would most likely be open and one I would feel more
comfortably using.
Matthew WhitleyNick Spartacus all bottles are
good brother 😎 use what is comfortable for you. I was merely commenting
on your description of how it affected your body. If it is putting strain on
your shoulder then I would suggest checking your stance and weight balance. I
personally don't see the connection between this technique and an open ridge
hand ??? I find this technique very useful and would use it before I used a
ridge hand but that is my personal preference. I like both techniques equally
and it becomes a choice of what I want to accomplish.
David Rayburn I was taught
that these punches went to the solar plexus and kidney, or the base of the
ribs. Never threw them to the temple, but an interesting view of them.
Victor Donald Smith When I was taught this in 1974. this
was the only way it was done, no one worked technique applications then, it was
quite a different paradigm that was followed. I just practiced and taught as I
had been shown. I taught for free, and that didn't leave cash for travel so I
did not associate with others tll I met Sherman Harril in 1975. 20 years, it
always worked, Then I saw variant versions from Sherman, I had never seen,
Added a lot to my vocabulary. But that did not mean what I was trained in
didn't work either. There are many variations about how Isshinryu is performed.
And interesting both my original instructor Tom Lewis, trained alongside
Sherman Harrill in Okinawa. Why the difference, irrelevant to me.
Dan Jason Price I was taught
both. Lower ribs as a White-Green. Brown and higher used it differently. I was
Sandan and.then I met Master S Harrill... WOW !!!
We would use it in 3's 1 high, and 2 low in drills, and alternate. I use the
Kusanku image to illustrate my areas of contact.
I LIKE ... Added a lot to my vocabulary. That did not mean what I was trained
in worked/didn't work either. There are many variations how Isshin Ryu is
performed.
When I was a beginner and I learned the
upper body charts Number 13.…
Nick SpartacusI was never a
fan of this technique and would never use it. Too much strain on the shoulder
and little behind it. Too many better options to choose. Just my opinion.
Matthew WhitleyNick SpartacusI would have to
respectfully disagree. If done correctly it shouldn't have any force/ strain in
the shoulders.
Matthew Whitley, if that option was open, an open ridge
hand to the throat would most likely be open and one I would feel more
comfortably using.
Matthew WhitleyNick Spartacusall bottles are
good brother 😎 use what is comfortable for you. I was merely commenting
on your description of how it affected your body. If it is putting strain on
your shoulder then I would suggest checking your stance and weight balance. I
personally don't see the connection between this technique and an open ridge
hand ??? I find this technique very useful and would use it before I used a
ridge hand but that is my personal preference. I like both techniques equally
and it becomes a choice of what I want to accomplish.
David Rayburn I was taught
that these punches went to the solar plexus and kidney, or the base of the
ribs. Never threw them to the temple, but an interesting view of them.
Victor Donald Smith When I was taught this in 1974. this
was the only way it was done, no one worked technique applications then, it was
quite a different paradigm that was followed. I just practiced and taught as I
had been shown. I taught for free, and that didn't leave cash for travel so I
did not associate with others untill I met Sherman Harrill in 1975. 20 years, it
always worked, Then I saw variant versions from Sherman, I had never seen,
Added a lot to my vocabulary. But that did not mean what I was trained in
didn't work either. There are many variations about how Isshinryu is performed.
And interesting both my original instructor Tom Lewis, trained alongside
Sherman Harrill in Okinawa. Why the difference, irrelevant to me.
Dan Jason Price I was taught
both. Lower ribs as a White-Green. Brown and higher used it differently. I was
Sandan and.then I met Master S Harrill... WOW !!!
We would use it in 3's 1 high, and 2 low in drills, and alternate. I use the
Kusanku image to illustrate my areas of contact.
I LIKE ... Added a lot to my vocabulary. That did not mean what I was trained
in worked/didn't work either. There are many variations how Isshin Ryu is
performed.
The only Chart 1 and Chart 2 I have used are the ones I
originally learned in the Salisbury Dojo of Tom Lewis. I never trained with
anyone outside of Lewis Sensei's organization in Isshinryu on the charts by what I was originally shown. Never
attempted to learn any other versions from movies or YouTube,
‘But now thinking on the underlying principles that are
shown on Chart 1, I can see some otherpossibilities that would be useful for dan training. I see no value
showing them to kyu students, they have enough to do with the original
versions. But considering some flex about the underlying principles makes them
quite credible dan training drills
Original Upper Body Combinations
Original Upper Body Combinations
RFF
Right Punch
RFF
Right Uppercut
LFF
Right Punch
LFF
Right Uppercut
RFB Left Low Block, Right Punch
RFB Left Side Block, Right Punch
RFB Left Arm Block, Right Spear
RFB Left High Block, Right Punch
RFB Left Open Hand Block, Right Uppercut
RFB Left Bridge Strike (Nose), Right Punch
LFF Left Low Block 5 Punches
LFF Left Side Block 5 Punches
LFF Right Roundhouse Punch, Left (Same)
LFF Left Open Low Block, Right Shuto
Break Bear Hug
Note that this does not attempt to address everything
possible. For example many Isshinryu (and I am one) first parry the strike with
my right palm setting up the following left side block, then the right hand
chambers before the strike. This is just one example of things to consider
Now consider a basic analysis of the principles in use.
I.The first set of principles show Interior Basic Attack moving into the attacker.
II.The second set of principles show Interior Counter attack moving away from the
attacker
III.The third set of principles show Interior Attack Overload moving into the
attacker.
IV.The fourth set of principles show more Complex Attack moving into the
attacker.
V.The fifth set of principles show Rearward defense from an attack from the rear.
.
While these are extremely valid use of basic techniques, they are at the same
time limiting other useful principles. For one thing the idea of counterattack
does not mean they are done with two beats, instead they could be simultaneous
block-strikes while moving away. Nor does the idea of a block limit the use of
the block from being a strike and in effect a double striking combination.
Those are also practices that should be considered in practice.
But the thing I notice is that
they are done straight in or straight backward from the attack. Where a more
advanced principle of defense is not being practiced.
Another
set or drills seems called for. A set of the first 14 not changed just first a
shift to the side when the attack is initiated and then performed on a 45 Degree Angleacross the attack.
Another
potential to explore is the Attack
Overload, where so many strikes are thrown that
sooner or later one scores to eliminate the threat. Consider again striking on
the 45 Degree Angle. Tom Lewis demonstrated a different version, where
the strikes work the centerline down the body. While theoretically possible to
block them, in reality extremely difficult.
1.RFF Moving forward on a
45 degree angle of attack Right Punch
2.RFF Moving forward on a
45 degree angle of attack Right Uppercut
3.LFF Moving forward on a
45 degree angle of attack Right Punch
4.RFF Moving forward on a
45 degree angle of attack Right Uppercut
5.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left Low Block, Right Punch
6.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left Side Block, Right Punch
7.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left Arm Block, Right Spear
8.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left High Block, Right Punch
9.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left Open Hand Block, Right Uppercut
10.RFB Shift to the side
and then counter on a 45 degree angle with Left Bridge Strike (Nose), Right
Punch
11.LFF Shift to the side and then counter on a 45 degree angle
with Left Low Block 5 Punches
12.LFF Shift to the side and then counter on a 45 degree angle
with Left Side Block 5 Punches
13.LFF Shift to the side and then counter on a 45 degree angle
with Right Roundhouse Punch, Left (Same) The
strikes can be delivered at an angle.
13+ 45 Degree
Angle. Tom Lewis demonstrated a different
version, where the strikes work the centerline
down the body. While theoretically possible to block them, in reality extremely difficult.
14++ 45 Degree Angle. Tom Lewis
demonstrated a different version, where the strikes work the center line down
the body. Strike to the throat, the solar plexus and the groin of into the
thigh While theoretically possible to block them, in reality extremely
difficult.
14.LFF Shift to the side and then counter on a 45 degree angle
with Left Open Low Block, Right Shuto The
strikes can be delivered at an angle
15.Break Bear Hug
One option to consider is the way
Sherman Harrill used the left arm/hand to first touch the attacker’s arm,
leading their mind, distracting them to weaken their grip and then striking
back with the other arm elbow.
There are
of course many variable targets for thse ‘blocks; and‘strikes’. Do not limit yourself to just one
option.
Other possibilities exist.
One should consider you might make
a mistake, for that is the constant in life.
Consider when you step forward
with No. 6 RFB Left Side Block, Right Punch .
Upi step outside of the strike, placing yourself in the Exterior Line of Defense.
In such a case you just raise your
left open hand, the one you cross before a block. That motion deflects the
strike away from your centerline as the arm raises.
From there you deliver your left
outside block to slide along the Exterior of their arm. As this occurs your
right hand chambers.
Then if they are stepping forward
with the right foot, you punch down into their upper thigh muscle into the bone
to drop them
Or if they are stepping forward
with their left foot they you can punch into their lower abdomen, Alternatively
into their right of left hip at the joint formed where their leg joins the hip,
on even into their groin.
This is but one set of
possibilities. It is just the simplicity of Chart One does not stop you from
developing other training possibilities.
When I was a beginner and I learned the upper body charts
Number 13. was Right Foot Forward with a Right
Roundhouse Punch,followed by a Left
Roundhouse punch.
I remember us practicing this repeatedly.
The target we visualized was a right then left strike into the temple
of the opponent.
The
way this movement was practiced was with the standard Isshinryu fist but the
roundhouse strikes with the hand turned away from you seeing the back of your
hand during the strike, so your thumb was pointed down, your hand turning into
the strike during execution.
When
the strikes his your first assumption was you were striking with the first two
knuckles into the temple area. And the punches were circling up and curving in
to make the strike. Almost ending on a descending arc.
We
did not practice the strikes against a partner in those days. So the
visualization I described was how you imagined the strikes would work.
Then
in time when I began to train with other styles studies with attackers began to
filter into my training.
I
came to realize other things were possible.
The
inverted fist strike of our roundhouse strike could also be used as a thumb
strike into the neck of someone. Which could be a KO strike because of the area
being struck.
Then
another possibility presented itself to me.
That
inverted striking area could be a double strike using the tip of the index
finger knuckle and the thumb. Another possibility
Thus,
this could be used for a strike to the temple, or into the neck depending on
choice, and with different striking surfaces depending on the effect of the
strike desired.
It
time (About 1987) I came to realize others in Isshinryu were using the double
hook punches as in Wansu kata for this strike. And that was a reasonable use.
Just not the one I learned.
A question for our senior sensei. Were
the 15 upper body basics and eight lower body basics set in stone from the
beginning, were there changes, additions or deletions. How were they practiced.
Thank you
Carl MillerLol.
Obviously not set in stone because I was taught 15 upper and 9 lower.
I think slight variations happened just
from memory. No YouTube when I or anyone before us had to rely on.
Victor Donald Smith
In 1974 when I originally learned them there were 15 upper body and 15 lower
body, I still teach them that way.
Original Lower Body Combinations
1. Front
Snap Kick
2. Knee Strike (45degrees)
3. Front Kick (Side)
4. Cross Kick
5. Side Snap Kick
6. Heel Strike (Knee)
7. Knee Strike
8. Rear Kick
9. Side Kick (45 degrees rear)
10. Squat Kick
11. Side Kick (on Floor)
12. Front Thrust (from floor)
13. Double Jump Kick
14. Roundhouse Kick
15. Side Kick (Rear 45 degrees), Rear Kick
Original Upper Body Combinations
1. RFF
Right Punch
2. RFF Right Uppercut
3. LFF Right Punch
4. LFF Right Uppercut
5. RFB Left Low Block, Right Punch
6. RFB Left Side Block, Right Punch
7. RFB Left Arm Block, Right Spear
8. RFB Left High Block, Right Punch
9. RFB Left Open Hand Block, Right Uppercut
10. RFB Left Bridge Strike (Nose), Right Punch
11. LFF Left Low Block 5 Punches
12. LFF Left Side Block 5 Punches
13. LFF Right Roundhouse Punch, Left (Same)
14. LFF Left Open Low Block, Right Shuto
15. Break Bear Hug
John Kerker I think the upper body basics (chart 1) have pretty
much stayed the same, it's the lower body basics (chart 2) I see different,
many have forgone the stretches and balance drills and added kicks.
Matthew Whitley Would you be able to send me chart 2? I currently
only have the 8 kicks and nothing else....
Mark Lahti In 1974 I remember a conversation between Master
Pogue and another black belt. They were discussing the kin geri and how it had
been dropped from the isshinryu basics, but our dojo would train in it and
"utilize it in a manner so that our opponents feel subject to intercourse
in an upward direction" (Paraphrasing). I still prefer the kin geri.
Pete Mills Any body can
change them, but I teach them just like Master Shimabuku taught in our dojo in
1966. They are posted on my web page.
John Kerker By the way....There is no reason to change them, and
they serve there purpose and work very well if trained properly.
Dan Jason Price In 1966 when I started, we learned 15 upper body
and 15 lower body, I still teach them that way.
Andy SloaneThere
were 15 lower-body basics to go along with the 15 upper-body basics. Why some
people decided to remove the exercises and the stretching from the lower-body
chart is a mystery.
Ittsukan Dojo From an Agena
dojo handout 1964/65. 15 upper, 14 lower. The back kick is missing and
"puck" kick should be push (heel) kick. Deep knee bends has been
changed to toe touches as the knee bends can cause injury.
Andy SloaneAnd
when the back kick was added a few years later, it became 15 (again). But there
were 15 in the late 1950s, so there was a slight modification to them in the
early 1960s, it seems.
Ittsukan DojoAndy Sloane , thanks. Do you know what the difference was
between the late 50s list and this mid 60s list? The 8 standard kicks are on
the mid 60s list. Was it an exercise that was dropped?
1. Toe
touch stretch
2. Back bend
3. Standing leg stretch
4. Squatting leg stretch
5. Front kick
6. Angle kick
7. Cross-over kick
8. Side kick (heel/blade of foot)
9. Side kick (ball of foot)
10. Squat kick
11. Toe-rip kick
12. Knee smash kick
13. Pushups (on knuckles)
14. Body twist
15. Deep breathing
Andy SloaneIttsukan Dojo, What I do for
my students is I combine #1 and #2 because their movements are similar to #15.
That makes my #1 a 2-part exercise and frees up a space to put the back kick in
the sequence. I teach the heel thrust instead of the toe-rip kick as part of
the basics because that's what it was changed to in the 1960s. I still teach
toe-rip kick in Sunsu kata though.
1) Toe
Touch Stretch
2) Standing Leg Stretch
3) Squatting Leg Stretch
4) Front Kick
5) Kick 45 Degree Angle To Knee
6) Cross Over Stomp Kick
7) Side Kick Edge of Foot
8) Side kick ball of foot
9) Squat kick
10) Back kick
11) Grabbing double hold front heel kick
12) Knee Strike Kick
13) Push ups and Jump Ups
14) Body Twist
15) Breathing Exercises
Which is from 2004. Is your list from the
late 50's?
Andy SloaneIttsukan Dojo Yes. It is
based on the teachings of first-generation students who trained in the late
1950s.
Ittsukan Dojo They are both
very similar. Mine toe touch includes the backbend also, so it is one exercise
and then includes the back kick. I teach both heel kick and toe rip.
Bill Poguewe
had 11 basics and 5 kicks when i started in 1965. soon after , we converted to
15 basics and 8 kicks. i added back kick and kin geri to make it 10. plus
specialty kicks developed in detroit dojo. i now teach side thrust kick since
its better than side snap kick in basics and wansu (shimabuku's films appear to
be side thrust in wansu and since we do not have it in any other kata, thats
where i leave it) for application and very few can ever get the side snap kick
down correctly. i leave side snap in sunsu. if you can't do the side snap right
by the time you get to sunsu, shame on you. my measure of right+ can break 4'
Bill Pogueone
inch pine boards with side snap from cocked position. no wind ups or body
english.
Larry BenoWow
Bill. Really, some of the hard core stuff we get from you is eye opening to say
the least.
Ralph HernandezI
learned 15 basics...and 9 kicks...year's later more kicks were added...but
there wasn't a hole lot..in the early 70ties...and nobody really knew all the
Katas..not even weapons...that came years later...Master Nagle in those day's
was more on fighting than kata...It was the caveman erra when I learned
Isshinryu...lollol...
