OK, yes, I realize I should write a
serious post… so here goes.
Everyone here should be familiar with
the description of the term “Hiki-te” used by Funakoshi in his 1922, 1925 and
1935 books, and subsequently plagiarized by a whole bunch of other books
published in Japan since the 1930s.
What is interesting to me is that he
uses the term “Hiki-te” to describe a specific kind of “hand maneuver,” but
does not seem to ever define it in terms of Kata or even as the opposite hand
from the punching hand. In my limited experience, this definition of the
“Hiki-te” describing the opposite hand from the punching hand as it is pulled
back to the side in Kihon and Kata “seems” to have been defined by the JKA…
Now, I am going on memory here so if
someone can point me to anything I may have forgotten, please do so, but I
cannot remember seeing in the old books anyone actually describe in words the
action of the opposite hand if it is merely being pulled to the side of the body
as the other hand goes out.
Could it be that the collective “we”
(all of us modern Karate guys) are attaching meaning where there may have never
been one, just because the two terms are the same in Japanese (Funakoshi’s
description of a move that is called Hiki-te because you pull the opponent; and
the JKA description of a move called the Hiki-te because you pull the hand back
as the other one goes out), but perhaps these two uses of the word were never
meant to represent the same idea?
I do not have an answer, just providing
something to think about on the way to the Dojo… LOL
Maurizio Di Stefano Well...
Basically you pull (hiki) the opponent using your hand (te)
Frik Willemse In Judo you
have the pulling hand (hiki-te) and pushing hand (tsuri-te) used to facilitate
a throw. Maybe Funakoshi was still using this from the Okinawan karate roots
where grappling was used. Just maybe...
Frik Willemse Kenneth Bergquist Poulsen I did a quick Google search and found that tsuri-te
actually means "lifting hand" and oshi-te means "pushing"
or "pressing hand" 😉👍
Andreas Quast It
is called a homonym if the same term has different meanings. It is an
interesting idea Joe. At this point, we should consult the texts first, I.e.,
locate the instances where the term was used by Funakoshi. Afterwards we can
look into the context. The we can take a look at if and if yes how he actually
described the opposite hand. And so on. Lots of work. Most difficult part comes
later: The JKA will never admit anything 🤓
Dojo TokyoMushinkan Lindsay McKenzie I said "two handed weapon" somewhere in
here... :P
Les Z Bubka Andy Allen you did ask for this :) Hikite found you. On
subject "
With those two things in mind, I was reading Gichin Funakoshi’s 1922 book
Karate-Jutsu (or To-Te Jutsu depending on the translation). In the section
which describes hand techniques, Funakoshi writes that: - “Hikite is to use the
opponents incoming punch and pull on it beyond its reach and to twist it at the
same time, to throw the opponent off his balance," topic here : https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/hikite-just-hand-hip
Hikite - Just a hand on the hip? | Iain
AbernethyHikite - Just a hand on the hip? | Iain Abernethy
Dojo TokyoMushinkan OK, in 1922
Funakoshi in his description of Hiki-te says to check figure 3 in Naihanchi.
Here is the page wth Hiki-te and the page with Figure 3 of Naihanchi. So he
does mention a specific Kata in this particular book, but the image he said to
check does not have a hand at the hip. I will just leave these here and you can
do with them what you will.
Dojo TokyoMushinkan Thomas Feldmann No, these came from a scan of a
1922 original :D
Andreas Quast Dojo TokyoMushinkan probably in connection with the previous pic
Dojo TokyoMushinkan My own
tentative conclusion - the hand at the hip is a stylization to allow the Kata
to look nice, whilst in combat the non-hitting hand does whatever it needs to
do, be that hold the enemy in place, pull him off balance, etc.
Axel Tojo Perhaps hikite
is not a specific hand position, but more general. Though it sounds a lot like
aikisage from Daito ryu and other jujutsu schools. Basically the dropping of
the wrist to capture the opponents wrist and set a hold so as to either pull or
be pulled in by the opponent.
Maurizio Di Stefano Hikite is a
principle, right?
Dojo TokyoMushinkan Oh, and who
said Funakoshi was even correct in his writings? Oops!
Kenneth Bergquist Poulsen I
am currently looking in the area of HikeTe (Pulling hand) and OshiTe (Pushing
hand / to push). This is in relation to me-oto-de, or "husband and wife
hands". This is described as a Kamae, and (this is the part I am working
on), also a way of moving your hands and arms to release and control a person
that has gripped on to you, that you are brawling with. This is very much work
in progress ;-) ...
Mark Tankosich I wonder about
how the Chinese arts approach this issue.
Victor
Smith As many can
attest I know little about HiKite except
what I read in many karate magazine articles (the internet of those days) and a
wide variety of books. Which of course means I know ever so little, and much of
that was wrong to begin with.
In my day the
paradigm in which I was trained , no one talked about kata technique
applications. Even when I began training with many, no others discussed that as
if it should be part of karate.
So when I began
trying to workout what kata technique could do, it was a step by step logical
analysis for myself. What many of the schools visited did was teach wazza
drills or what they called ‘aikijutsu’ bearing no relationship of the art by the same name.
What I did gain from studying with them was some knowledge how technique
applications could work.
When I trained
with Ernest Rothrock, solely a study of tai chi and a variety of forms, we did
not cover much about technique applications. But he used to ask me many, many
leading questions about my own art, and I now recognize that was his way of
guiding my thoughts.
Then I trained
with Tristan Sutrisn in his family Shotokan and other arts. He defined what he called as ‘Bunkai’ according to his
fathers traditions, his father had studied with Funakoshi back in the 1930s. But
I never heard him utter the word Hikite.
Later as I came
to understand the term it made sense from the aikido he shared.
Eventually I
began work on my own studies. Hikite was not specifically one of them.
The wheel turns
and I met Joe Swift on the internet and right away he demonstrated the use of
geri and keri were not the same thing. My knowledge was mostly geri.
I realize this
is getting long so perhaps it best to cut to the core.
So one hand
punches as the other retracts to chamber. Among my realizations:
1.
The beginning of
that retracting hand can be used for a wide variety of slashing fist strikes
into the body, the neck and the head. That slashing motion towards you is quite
viscous, assuming you do not care for those you are striking.
2.
There are a wide
variety of uses of both hand movements to take control of an attacking limb.
3.
That retracting
hand can be used as a slashing motion to srrike into or across an attacking
arm. Either for the strike itself, or to redirect that strike.
4.
From Rothrock
Laoshi he suggested from his experience in the Chinese Arts that motion
returning that fist to the side of the body, is placing that hand there to
provide a stably block as against a kick.
5.
There is a whole
range of both motions becoming a grasp/pull allowing a strike with the opposite
hand.
6.
And of course
the motion may have nothing to do with striking, instead being a rearward elbow strike. I
would introduce that to beginners as a beginning explanation that a movement
seen from one direction would have an
entirely different meaning seen from another direction.
Those are a few
thoughts that come to mind at this moment.
I am still
working until I know something.
As
tjhe Okinawan's published their own Encyclopedia of karate and kobudo
(unfortunately only in Japanese, I would be interested in what they say about
hikte.
Dojo TokyoMushinkan Victor Donald Smith it's not in there, it is more of
an encyclopedia than a dictionary of terms.
Jim Alexander
When I have to split hairs, I go to my second edition Budō Jiten by Fredrick
Lovret.
He defines it as 1) the hand used for pulling; 2) pulling the hand to the rear.
There is no reference to it being paired with one punch going out as the other
comes back. To anecdotally support this we were trained to do this SEPARATE
from two handed punching. Training this way REALLY creates a dynamic punch that
ALSO is an attack (hijiate, elbow strike). But also (higiate ,secret technique)
to an opponent coming from the rear , and the front.
no comments about the original use in literature,etc.
Manny Hawthorne https://judoinfo.com/
also found in Kendo. "Pulling hand" what I believe is the interest of
this conversation, I take it to mean the torque that is created by the pulling
of the opposite hand in a quick, rotatation of the hips. Whereby the formula
for the power of a punch can be expressed as F=MxV² ×T (torque). Don't hold me
to this, for it is just a theory?
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