An example of a discussion on FaceBook that goes on for 3 years,
I also really don’t know what it is about,
But it is a lot of talk!
I know many of the people posting here
But in none of my studies was Kiko bandied
about.
One of my pet peeves is the new term
"Kiko", being the equivalent of Qi Gong/Chi Gung. It's not an old
term, but one that sprouted from China after 1949. The term was never a part of
Okinawan Karate until recently. In China, previously, the terms Nei Gong or Dao
Yin was used.
David Gambrell I thought Kiko was just the Japanese pronunciation of
the Chinese "Qigong" characters?
Robert Chu The point is that it's not
an old Chinese or Okinawan term
David Gambrell Oh, ok. Sorry, I misunderstood.
Leonard Hill Kiko is the Japanese equivalent of Qigong
Scot Mertz Show me where that word is in any Japanese
dictionary.
Christopher Clarke Scot Mertz But qi is
invisible... LOL
Jeffrey L. Riggs I
have read and seen reference to the word several times. I can't say what the
source of the word is, nor can I say if it is even legitimate. However, in 50+
years of Karate study, I have never heard of a Japanese equivalent of Qigong.
Only referenc…
Robert Chu Exactly!
Leonard Hill https://kenpo-gokui.blogspot.com/.../kiko-japanese-qigong...
Kiko - Japanese Qigong, sorta ...Kiko - Japanese Qigong, sorta ...
Robert Chu A lot of times, a lot of mystical talk
Robert Chu Kiko is not a part of Karate, at least the modern
term.
Kevin Burkett
I understand your frustration, but it's even used in a book by renowned
Okinawan Master, Tetsuhiro Hokama.
Robert Weinberg Kevin Burkett
Hokama Sensei is a wonderful teacher. In which book does he use this term?
Sebastián Reina Cano "Karate without Kiko is not Karate". T.
Hokama. Essence of Goju Ryu. Vol 1.
Kevin Burkett Robert Weinberg,
He mentions it in History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate.
Leonard Hill I just had an argument recently with several karate
practitioners about Qigong, or internal energy work being a part of karate.
Russ Smith When
I was taught Sanchin, I was taught the same visualizations I now know to be
part of the "macrocosmic" orbit. Coincidence?
Robert Chu On Okinawa?
Russ Smith Originally
I learned Goju-Kai (Japanese Goju-Ryu), while in the Philippines.
Russ Smith Could be that Yamaguchi had brought it in...from his
other esoteric practices.
Robert Chu Looking at Yamaguchi, we know his knowledge of
Okinawan Goju Ryu was incomplete. Perhaps along the way someone read a book and
added it to what you learned. Yamaguchi did Shinto and Yoga and added his
personal slant in things, as well as making up his Taikyoku kata based on
Shotokan. Qigong at his time was hardly heard of.
James Bullock Yamaguchi is the 2nd worst thing to happen to Goju in
my opinion. 1st being Peter Urban.
Henry McCann Well, I lived in Okinawa 1995-1996. When I was there
I studied with a student of Shimabuku Tatsuo. I asked him about the Xiao Zhou
Tian during Shanchin. He didn't recognize the name at all (I speak Japanese so
I gave him the name in Japanese pronunciation). But after I described it to him
he told me that Shimabuku did teach this but that his students basically didn't
pay attention to actually practicing it.
Robert Chu Henry McCann , isn't
that akin to not knowing it?
Henry McCann Totally Robert. He didn't know it in any sense of the term. But it
would seem that his teacher Shimabuku, at least from second hand accounts (that
we can't verify otherwise) did at least know of it. How much he practiced it
though is anyone's guess. None of the other folks I trained with in Okinawa
practiced Qigong-like exercises or talked about them.
Robert Chu Henry McCann ,
certainly easy enough, we can ask Isshin Ryu practitioners if they've learned
and mastered these practices. In Shorin Ryu I studied, we don't speak of Kiko.
Robert Chu Just for microcosmic practitioners, simply ask the
the direction of the flow of Ren, Du, and Chong Mai...
Paul Enfield http://ryukyuma.blogspot.com/2012/06/okinawan-kiko.html
奇科
ryukyuma.blogspot.com
A Brief
Outline of Okinawan Kiko (沖縄気功)
Robert Chu There you go! 🤣
Robert Chu This is under the secret transmission of making stuff
up...
Hide or report this
Robert Chu Amazing how Karate is traced back to Daruma, and for
several centuries, cannot trace any Chinese lineages from that time,
conveniently forgetting the Chinese from Daruma's time to the late 1700's on
Okinawa.
Paul Enfield Robert Chu Ryan, goes
on to say, "1) Many scholars doubt the veracity of the Daruma legend,
however, this is the traditional explanation offered for the origin of these
exercises. Many scholars have noted that the earliest reliable references to
this training which are still extant are from the Ming dynasty."
Paul Enfield The thing about Ryan is that he has tested everything
he talks about. His iron body skills are quite remarkable.
Robert Chu Sure, but where are the sources of his attainment?
Embellishment is quite common in martial arts.
Paul Enfield Robert Chu Haha, Ryan
doesn't embellish. If you ask him he'll be completely straight with you about
where he learned his skills. He's like Superman, he never lies :).
Robert Chu Paul Enfield, being a fan of Superman, I have to say he's a liar,
having to protect his secret identity. As for Ryan, I'm sure he's skilled, but
this training is perhaps his cross training or otherwise.
Daniel Owens Robert Chu My
apologies if I am misunderstanding you, but is the suggestion that Ryan lied
about where he acquired his knowledge or that maybe his teacher(s) misled him
as to the origin of some of their knowledge? Or are you not specifying where
the falsehood lay?
Robert Chu I am simply stating that the term "Kiko" is
of recent vintage and that certain Chinese practices have been adopted
recently. Whether or not there are falsehoods in specific lineages is not
really my concern. This is certainly old in martial arts every where.
Daniel Owens Robert Chu Could it
be, instead, that there is a third option, which is that they picked up the
newer terminology for something that they were already doing (and may or may
not have taken from China)?
Robert Chu I love the Japanese pronunciation of the Xiao Zhou
Tian and Da Zhou Tian (micro and macro cosmic orbits)
Robert Chu And the names quoted and ambiguities and mysticism
just take advantage of the ignorant.
Rik Kellerman I believe the English term, "Microcosmic
Orbit," was first used by Mantak Chia. Before that , most used "Small
Heavenly Cycle," if I'm not mistaken.
So that might give you a timeline for that terminology
Robert Chu Rik Kellerman it’s a
good translation for “Xiao Zhou Tian”.
David Gambrell Just to throw this out there, is the OP suggesting
that just because something wasn't proven to be historically a part of a
tradition means that in has no place in said tradition? Robert Chu
Robert Chu Things develop always, and there can be always
improvement, but embellishing to say it was always there from the beginning is
not truth. As for morals, sins, etc. I'm not asking for repentance, just
pointing it out.
David Gambrell Ah, I see. I definitely agree with that!
John McNally We are
living in the age of information technology. Door to door Karate class sales.
When I was young in the 60s Karate had a mystery about it. The deadly Black
Belt. In some areas in the past 10 years it's been diluted to a farce.
Everything Traditio…
David Gambrell Could the culture of the times (TCM) not make it
likely enough to have been around? And the commonality of it (making the
practice of it less significant) potentially be the reason for lack of
evidence?
Just a thought...
Robert Chu David Gambrell Old
name for Qi Gong is Nei Gong, Dao Yin, Shen Gong, Da Zuo, and many other
references...
Arnold Rosenstock Ah yes!! My suggestions elsewhere concerning verbal
monkey dancing appear to be in
order.
Dan Smith Not meaning to start a new thread but what is the
meaning of internal energy? If there is an internal energy how does it become
external energy?
If internal energy does not leave the body how does this energy help or hurt
the body.
If the internal energy does leave the body where does it go?
Andy Sloane It's
not a new term even 3 years ago when you wrote this.
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