Dear Dan:
You said in part: I know that if you asked Zenpo Sensei to day what he thought of finishing on starting spot he would say the same as I would say. It is good but do not sacrifice your movement to make yourself finish at the spot.
RESPONSE:
I agree with the above statement whether from you or Zenpo Sensei.
Please do not get upset, this topic of starting and ending at the same spot is actually good conversation. A simple topic, one small aspect of the arts, that is fun to explore and discuss.
Dan, please do not take offense at me not placing much weight on your opinions regarding Goju kata. You have met, watched, and perhaps dabbled in some Goju kata but I do not think your exposure of Goju training has been at a serious level either as a student or teacher. I am aware of you originally practicing Shotokan and then switching to Seibukan, thereby the majority of your experience lays in the Shuri based arts. All of my training is in Goju and Kobudo. However, you knowing any Goju kata is way ahead of the knowledge I have pertaining to Shuri based kata, as I do not and have not practiced any of them. I recognize them when I see them and I recognize a good kata performance regardless of system, but I do not personally "train" in any Shuri based kata. I believe that the beginning and ending of the kata being one in the same is an important aspect talked about, taught, and even written about pertaining to the Shuri based arts. However, this is not the case with Goju. To me personally, "training" in an art provides the answers as to what is important toward growth, understanding, and personal improvement. Training being defined as on the floor sweating through it for a lot of years and hours. Training is different than traveling, reading, talking, or writing. I think you have this experience regarding Shotokan and Shorin, but I'm not aware of you having this serious level of experience with Goju. Maybe I'm incorrect. I'd like to see your Goju kata personally. I know you go to Denver periodically, please let me know the next time you visit and perhaps we could train together in Goju kata and Kobudo. We may be able to help one another with secrets pertaining to size and training, as I'm 6'4" and 240 pounds:)
I've trained with Gakiya Sensei, Itokazu Sensei, Yamashiro Sensei, and others in Matayoshi Kobudo. None of the above taught, discussed, emphasized, or mentioned the importance of or even mentioned beginning and ending on the same spot. I've trained in Kobudo since 1979. Choun no Kon does not end on the same spot if one steps forward at the end. Anyway, we can agree to disagree. Your post sounded like you have a lifetime of experience and training in Kobudo. I'd love to get together and practice Kobudo together too as I would enjoy seeing your personal performance of Kobudo. Since you focus on Matayoshi Kobudo we could focus our training on that system.
Thank you for your comments on Chinto, I can clearly see how that kata indeed would be difficult to begin and end at the same spot. I must also apologize as I was incorrect, the tape I have is of two separate tapes, the Walter Dailey Sensei portion and Zempo Sensei portion are actually two different tapes at two different times. Sorry for that misinformation. You've got a good Sensei training you in a good system, I'm happy for you. I also appreciate the updates you provide following your trips. The thing I enjoy the most is training, let's try to get together to workout together in person.You are also always welcome at any of my dojos. Either way, lets train!
Have a safe and happy holiday and thank you for the exchange of opinions.
Sincerely,
Steve Wilson
Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate-Do Kenkyukai
Okinawan Karate/Kobudo Institute
Eagle, CO
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While I respect Mrs. Wilson and de wet's confidence in their Goju Ryu teachers not ever mentioning the beginning and ending in approximately the same spot it is certainly not practical information to support their opinion.
First, let me comment to Mr. de wet that I have had the opportunity to perform Goju Ryu kata with a group of other Goju Ryu practioners while training on Okinawa at Masanobu Shinjo dojo, Kanae Sensei's Jinbukan(I was a member of the Jinbukan for many years while serving as the representative for North America for Jnbukan Matayoshi Kobudo), I have trained at Kuba sensei dojo since 1986 on an almost yearly basis(Kuba sensei is a senior student of Toguchi. There are several members of these groups that have trained with me at Kuba sensei's and have gone there on my recommendation). Additionally, Seichi Higa and Meitatsu Yagi have been house guest of mine in Atlanta. So, I have had the opportunity to train with Goju Ryu people and in my experience they do not hit or miss the starting and finishing point with any less regularity than Shorin Ryu adepts.
I utilized in the wrong context my comment about "immutable". My desire was to express that if in fact the kata were created to finish in close proximity to the starting point the need to consider it important would be immutable. Why create something and then not try and find value.
We should be using this forum to express not only our opinions and feelings but when we get into a debate we should if at all possible provide evidence of our positions. I have stated that numerous of the kata do have if nothing else a coincidental positioning that gives the impression that the kata were designed to follow a certain line of movement (embusen) that leads you back to your starting point. Neither Mr. Wilson or de wet have offered any information other than what they feel or have not heard.
In an effort to provide more information for consideration I would suggest that a review of Okinawan Goju Ryu by Seikichi Toguchi and Traditional Karatedo by Morio Higaonna(volumes 2,3 & 4) will reveal that they both used diagrams to indicate the proper embusen. They depict the starting point and show the finishing point in revlence to the beginning diagram. In most cases the finishing point is exactly at the starting point or within a close proximity. I think the most important aspect of both of these knowledgeable Goju Ryu sensei is that they found it important to depict the embusen and to show the relevant finishing points.
I appreciate the debate we have had and look forward to more sharing of information. I will commit to our groups to research this subject on my next trip to Okinawa in March of 2005. I will gather information and share my findings in early April. I have no stake in this debate as to whether I am right or wrong. So, if the research shows that I am in error I will certainly benefit but regardless our group can benefit.
If the starting and ending ,even in the close proximity, is purely coincidental we can still benefit from solving this apparently understood or misunderstood concept.
Gambatte
Dan Smith
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I personally feel that the manner in which embusen is thought of and emphasized in modern karate is misunderstood. The beginning and ending "spot" is not what is important (IMO). This simple translation and utilization of the term and principle is elementary in understanding and purpose pertaining to the way that most karate-ka interpret it.
Seichu in Japanese means 'exact middle'. 'Sen' means 'line'. Seichusen refers to the line or path in which the opponent must travel to reach you during his attack. It is also the line or path that you must
utilize in order to attack your opponent. In addition, defending your Seichusen is impertative in order to conquer your opponent. If you properly defend your Seichusen then your opponent cannot succeed.
IMO, this is the relevance of embusen, not beginning and ending on the same spot. I feel that the deeper more meaningful principles of the embusen are overlooked and what is emphasized instead is where you
start and end the kata and how close those two positions are to one another. The importance of embusen is the actual line or path of the kata itself.
Sincerely,
Steve Wilson
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Kata Start and Ending - Part 3
In response to Steve's comments. I will make sure that the next time I am in Denver I will do my best to arrane a visit with you. I do not know if you were aware of Itokazu sensei's visit along with Shimabukuro sensei to the Denver and Colorado Springs area the last week of October. They conducted training in Matayoshi Kobudo and Seibukan Shorin Ryu. Itokazu sensei accompanied Zenpo sensei on a six week trip to the US and Mexico. I spent about one month with them. Soke Matayoshi has entered into an agreement with Zenpo sensei for all Seibukan dojo to follow the Kodokan under Itokazu sensei's direction. Jamal Measara in Germany and I have been active practioners of Matayoshi Kobudo for more than 25 years. Since both Measara sensei and I had become members of the Jinbukan, even though keeping relationships with Matayoshi sensei, we had standardized all Seibukan dojo on Matayoshi kobudo through the Jinbukan. With the need to support the Kodokan and the demise of Jinbukan we are now supporting Matayoshi sensei's son and Itokazu sensei.
I can understand that in training with Gaikiya,Yamashiro and Itokazu sensei that it would be difficult with communications about some aspects of the kobudo training. It is my understanding that the kobuod kata of Matayoshi all begin and end in the close proximity. As I mentioned I will make this a subject of priority when I go to Okinawa in March. I will be trainig daily with Itokazu sensei to insure our standardization of technique with the Kodokan. I do not know if Steve has ever trained at the Kodokan but it would be close to impossible for more than two people to practice the bo without shuffle stepping to perform a complete bo kata. Perhaps space should be a consideration or was a consideration. I look forward to sharing Matayoshi kobudo with you when I visit Denver.
Response to Sean's comments. Per my comments to my training in Goju Ryu over the years. While I do not claim to be a Goju Ryu practioner I have dedicated a significant amount of time to the Goju Ryu kata. I will be happy to perform the kata whenever the opportunity arises. Several members of these groups have been with me to Goju Ryu dojo or have visited with me for training in Goju Ryu kata. Perhaps they will make a comment.
I think it is important to listen to everything your teachers comment on but at the same time if they do not make a comment it does not mean that certain aspects they do not mention are not important. Personally, I have gone years without getting corrections on certain aspects of karate only to find that my performance was okay or that my performance was substandard and I was not ready for more information. I have stated previously that I have never had a Goju Ryu teacher comment on the staratng and ending point of a kata but I would not assume that it is not important.
Nicole's comments: I apologize if I seemed demeaning and I certainly do not want to be contradictory. I did ask for opinions and feelings but at the same time I do not think you can object to someone's offer of data rather than feelings to make your point. My request while needing improvement was to say that I have heard your opinions do you have any facts, anecdotes, etc.
I am in total agreement with Steve that this thread has been a good one. I have had to stop and go through my own recollections and kata to insure that feel that my position has a good foundation. On the other hand if I found that my position was weak I would re-evaluate. I stand ready to be corrected when I goto Okinawa and do more research. The wonderful thing about continuing to be a student is that you can learn more and not to have to fine lack of knowing. My teacher has been my greatest example of admitting he was wrong on a technique after years of thinking one way and then gaining an understanding that he could do it or understand it better. I am open to being wrong as it means that is one more thing I can get right.
Gambatte
Dan Smith
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I personally feel that the manner in which embusen is thought of and emphasized in modern karate is misunderstood. The beginning and ending "spot" is not what is important (IMO). This simple translation and utilization of the term and principle is elementary in understanding and purpose pertaining to the way that most karate-ka interpret it.
Seichu in Japanese means 'exact middle'. 'Sen' means 'line'. Seichusen refers to the line or path in which the opponent must travel to reach you during his attack. It is also the line or path that you must utilize in order to attack your opponent. In addition, defending your Seichusen is imperative in order to conquer your opponent. If you properly defend your Seichusen then your opponent cannot succeed.
IMO, this is the relevance of embusen, not beginning and ending on the same spot. I feel that the deeper more meaningful principles of the embusen are overlooked and what is emphasized instead is where you
start and end the kata and how close those two positions are to one another. The importance of embusen is the actual line or path of the kata itself.
Sincerely,
Steve Wilson
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