Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue have a dialogue on the old CD - Part 6

 

Back in 1997 I was new to the internet and the CyberDojo. Almost immediately I found a lengthy dialogue between  Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue.

Patrick was a well known competitor, practitioner and author on his arts. He knew George as his book editor at Tuttle, but not as a martial artist.

George had been raised in Japan, was on an old Samuri tv series as a youth playing the younger version of the samurai for flashbacks when he learned vartiou lessons. He later trained in karate on Okinawa. Established a Kashiba Juku group in the states and eventually became the martial arts editor  for Tuttle Publications.

Knowing that Patrick was in a somewhat heated discussion on the CD when George weighed in. Beginning what would be a lengthy discussions of an extremely erudite level of discourse. I do not know of another discussion of similar character. A discussion that does not exist  today.

This will be challenging but well worth the effort.

Because of it's length I am breaking it into several parts.
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From Digest 1384   Fri,  8 Aug 1997 00:18:17 CDT

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:33:36 +1000
From: "Patrick McCarthy" <Bujin@bigpond.com>
To: <karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: KARATE digest 1378
Message-ID: <12412931270926@onaustralia.com.au>

Beyond Titles <extremely long post>

Dear Mr. Donohue,

My apologies for not having responded earlier but I've been terribly busy with other things. Thanks for part two of your response. In spite of our debate flowing into many other areas, I found your personal observations interesting and your comparative narratives really a lot of fun to read.Having actually experienced many the things that you have described, you will not find me in disagreement with much of what you have written. You have obviously had the good fortune of locating someone capable of imparting the principles of karate/kobudo in a way, which are not only effective and enjoyable for your level, but someone who's skill and personality you also admire. I am not surprised that you are so proud of such good fortune.  

However, in spite of your good fortune, history is still history and nothing you or I can do will ever change what has happen in the past. The advent and subsequent evolution of the defensive traditions cultivated in Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom have been shrouded by history. What little historical testimony we do have is more often than enough so obscured by the quagmire of half-truths, and minefields of unchallenged folklore, that unless one has actually done the math themselves, it is virtually impossible to arrive at accurate deductions.

A couple a small points I would, however, like to make include your training facility. It sounds to me as if you are part of a study group where like-minded enthusiasts (i.e. black belts from other schools,) gather to enhance that which they have learned elsewhere, or to be introduced to alternative training standards. Such training environments, although not exclusive to Okinawa, are common wherever such interest exist.  May I also remind the reader that there is a whole world full of karate/kobudo learners/teachers out there right now who are completely satisfied with the methods they are embracing and the schools in which it is being imparted. What turns your crank, may not necessarily apply to the next person.  

True, large classes are impersonal, but that does not necessarily lessen their value. Conversely, there is no guarantee that a small casual group may cultivate anything more precious. Personal effort, a comprehensive curriculum, and quality instruction are the principal elements necessary for the acquisition of knowledge and development of skill. "The skill of an able teacher lies not necessarily in the transfer of information but rather in awakening the mind of the learner."

I doubt seriously whether a beginner with no hard-earned foundation would go very far in a casual class that has all the urgency or formality of a family backyard BBQ.

Donohue: I'm not sure what exactly Kinjo-sensei meant by "loosely practiced 'traditions,'" but this sounds pretty good to me. Certainly preferable to rigidly practiced traditions.   

McCarthy: By using the term "loosely" practiced traditions, Master Kinjo is referring to the inadequate ways in which karate was taught. A term which, by definition, would seem to encourage improvement.  

Donohue: I think that one of the biggest contributions my own sensei(s) have made to my training is to restore the "looseness" to the practice.   

McCarthy: I am in agreement, pliability is far superior to stiffness, and especially in an art that demands nothing less.  However, isn't stiffness be a byproduct of inadequate teaching?  

Donohue: We have fun, we train in a relaxed informal manner, we don't concern ourselves with the rigid hierarchy imposed upon the Okinawan culture by the Japanese, we don't try to impose uniformity of technique among the various practitioners, and -- most important _ we learn a lot of effective fighting skills within a milieu of cooperation, friendship, and good will.  

McCarthy: Well, such a phenomenon is not a monopoly. There are countless schools, which cultivate similar teaching environments. We too also have fun when we train. Any other way is not productive.  I insist that learners relax when putting forth effort. However, such a feat is usually only accomplished by those more experienced and advanced. It takes time to develop such ability. Quite frankly, I not only like the uniformity, I find that it also provides the perfect mold from which individuality can blossom.

Shuhari: Denotes the three phases of systematized learning (Obedience, Divergence, and Separation) "Shu" to learn from tradition, "Ha" to break the chains of tradition, "Ri" to transcend the tradition. From youth to adulthood to maturity, each phase corresponds with the physical, philosophical and the spiritual.

Donohue: We have no certificates, but we have nice handwritten scrolls of encouragement from our sensei, and, aside from those we may have earned before being accepted as students, we have no ranks, just black belt.  

McCarthy: I think I should offer some form of apology for not having completely absorbed the entirety of your argument.  You see, up until now, I thought you were talking about karate in general. Am I to understand that your training facility is just for black belts (learners who already have established a foundation elsewhere), by invitation only (select applicants) or does everyone start with a black belt?

Although it has a catchy sound, I must admit I've never heard the Japanese term "Juku" (A term first used in Edo Period Japan to describe the small but elite schools of learning in which the samurai warrior received an academic education) used in connection with Okinawan karate.  These days the term "juku" usually refers to a place where Japanese (that includes Okinawans as well) students go to in order to receive the kind of preparatory study not generally adhered to in regular studies. The English nickname for Juku is "Cram School."

Donohue: This is terribly disorganized, and would cause an organization minded karateka to despair, but it is traditional for many loosely practiced traditions.  

McCarthy: Well, I don't know that such a thing is "traditional" for loosely practiced traditions, but I certainly would concur, that no organization of any value could ever be effectively run in such a way.

Donohue: (As a matter of fact, we have no organization records whatsoever -- which is sometimes a problem when professional karateka claim falsely to be students of our teachers).

McCarthy: It makes little difference whether one is a professional or an amateur, there are unscrupulous people everywhere in life Mr. Donohue; solicitors, law enforcement, the medical profession, and the clergy, why I imagine there are even dishonest editors around too;-)

Donohue: It's also a very effective way to learn and transmit martial skills.  When my teachers are long dead, there will be no evidence of their skill and the only evidence of the effectiveness of their martial arts teaching skills will be the skill of their students and the subsequent generations of students.  Very hard to document!

McCarthy:  It's ironic that you would mention such a thing. The very nature of my painstaking research during the many years I resided in Japan was dedicated exclusively to rediscovering the unabridged history, pragmatic philosophy, defensive application and infinite principles, which had become lost for reasons which you've just mentioned.  Moreover, self-aggrandizing rational promotes elitism and protectionism which do little to elevate karate in general.   

I'd like to quote Miyagi Chojun, who in 1934 said "the era of secrecy in which Toudijutsu (Chinese Martial Arts) unfolded has since concluded and the time has come, during this peaceful environment, when "karatedo" [the way of karatedo] can be pursued in public. In its infancy, the future of this "do" [way] is immeasurable. With this opportunity, we must discard the narrow belief that karate is a secret art known only in the Ryukyu's. With karate open to the public, budo masters need to continue to criticize and study karate deeply. In the future, we expect to complete the development of safety equipment for competitive fighting.  We are determined to have karate competition at the same level as other (Japanese) martial arts. In doing so, it (karate) will become part of the Japanese martial arts spirit in general. "

I have every reason to believe that someone, somewhere, under some just banner, will, sooner or later, systematize whatever it is that Mr. Donohue is learning and exploit it in the same way that everything else has been exploited in the Western marketplace.

A perfect example of such exploitation is Mr. Kishaba's Yamaneryu kobudo and his brother's interpretation of Nagamine Shoshin's Matsubayashiryu karatedo.  I remember only too well the first opportunity that I had to experience their system in Okinawa in 1985 at Prof. Shinzato Katsuhiko's home in Yonabaru. How impressed I was with his understanding of body dynamics and fluid motion. Using the same tools common to karate in general and some of the identical bojutsu kata (Shirotaru, Yonegawa, Shuji, Sakugawa and Chinen Shikiyanaka,) found in other schools (i.e. Yabiku/Taira & Matayoshi etc.,) the emphasis of their system focused upon getting the best performance from one's actions without wasted motion.

How impressed I was to meet teachers who not only understood but actually taught karate according to sound scientific principles rather than the indiscriminate practice commonly seen. Stepping and sliding, fluidity, circular action, hip rotation, floating and sinking, regulating the flow of air from within the body and synchronizing it with the muscular activity, applying the TSJF (total summation of joint forces,) to maximize force upon impact, mass times acceleration equals force, etc. My contact with such people had a profound impact upon the way I would come to embrace karate and kobudo.

Rather than consider such a system unique or special, I merely assimilated that experience, with the twenty years of knowledge I had already amassed, and continually synthesized it with other that which my research would ultimately bring me into contact with. Over the subsequent years I spent training and painstakingly researching the defensive traditions in places like Okinawa, Fujian, Malaysia, Philippines, Taiwan, etc., I was able to use such experiences as a kind of yardstick with which to measure the depth and value of other standards and systems.

Through years of training and continually coming into contact with teachers the caliber of Kishaba, Shinzato, Kinjo, Aragaki, Itokazu, and Yonamine, etc., I ultimately came to discover that the principles upon which karate/kobudo rest are universal and cannot be changed but must be cooperated with in order to become a recipient of its omnipotence.
Reflecting the universal principles upon which karate/kobudo rest, standards and systems are only limited by the individual knowledge of those most responsible for imparting the tradition. The lack of standards and indiscriminate learning has impeded the transmission of this humble tradition. Understanding such a phenomenon, I came to better grasp what French Philosopher/Mathematician, Henri Poincare, meant when, in 1905 (the same year in which my teacher's teacher [Hanashiro Chomo] he wrote, "Science is built upon facts much in the same way that a house is constructed of stone, but that the mere collection of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house."

Whenever a tradition is taught indiscriminately, and the principles upon which it rests are not learned, we perpetuate darkness from which only confusion, ignorance and misunderstanding can ever come.  Bushi Matsumura, in 1883, he wrote "And to those whose training remains hampered by ego-related distractions, remember humility, the spiritual cornerstone upon which "te" (Martial Arts) rests, and place virtue before vice, values before vanity, and principles before personalities

McCarthy: Mr. Donohue spoke of uniqueness. To me the word unique conveys a message that "there is only one of its type."  Simply put, Karate is not unique to Okinawa, in fact, its original prefix "kara" (Chinese) clearly reveals its foreign origins. A fact underscored by the early Okinawan pioneers of this foreign defensive phenomenon who revered the Bubishi; a Qing Period Chinese text compiled in Fujian province addressing the parent traditions upon which karate is based.

Mr. Donohue also used the words "native" and "indigenous" in the same context.  In spite of the various ways the word native can used, I believe that Mr. Donohue was referring to "native" as being "not brought from another place."  In spite of the obvious metamorphosis karate has gone through, it still cannot hide the fact that the practice was clearly brought to Okinawa from China. An old Uchinan kotowaza (local proverb) underscores the importance of learning "Te" [Martial Arts] in Fuzhou, "the place where "Te" should be studied."

Similarly, his use of the word "indigenous," in this contest, conjures up a feeling that "karate originated naturally in a particular place; i.e. Okinawa." Karate did not originate in Okinawa, in spite of the provocative folklore surrounding the Pre-Meiji peasant class theory: karate was the product of the oppressed peasants, who, unbeknownst to the Japanese administrators garrisoned on the island, secretly devised an omnipotent method of defeating the professional samurai warrior.  

I originally asked Mr. Donohue to define Okinawan "Martial Arts?" I was hoping that he might try to define the ambiguous term, as there is a significant different between "Martial Arts" and "civil" defensive traditions. When compared to its surrounding cultures, Okinawa has no history of unique "Martial Arts." It is said that Minamoto Tametomo (1139-70,) a subordinate of Japan's once powerful Minamoto Clan, upon
landing in Okinawa took over the island and built an army, training them in the standard battlefield (archery, spear/swordsmanship and grappling,) tactics of the Heian Period (794-1191) Japanese pre-samurai warrior.

In spite of the practice of Tegumi (kumite spelt backwards) unfolding from the Japanese grappling method Tametomo introduced, it was, nonetheless, introduced from somewhere else first. The necessity of pursuing such a defensive heritage is underscored by King Shoshin in 1507, and Shimazu Yoshihisa in 1609, who made certain that the island people would never again need the weapons of war. Becoming intertwined with Chinese defensive principles, while subject to the cultural characteristics native to the foreign society into which it was assimilated, tegumi became a highly eclectic interpretation of Japanese battlefield grappling techniques which, albeit not so popular nowadays, was vigorously pursued amongst all boys in Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom.

As I have said before, I will say it again, karate in Okinawa represent generations of Keimochi (often incorrectly described as Shizoku) and law enforcement officials cultivating foreign defensive practices in a way which best addressed the individual but habitual acts of physical violence that plagued Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom. Therefore, if uniqueness can be defined as borrowing from existing practices to meet the needs of its culture, then Okinawa definitely has unique "Martial Arts."  

I believe that a person is as much the product of a tradition as the tradition is the product of a person. What if a person (Okinawan or otherwise,) even after a lengthy learning process, was incapable of performing the principles of such a unique tradition? Would it lose its uniqueness or would it become more unique? My research indicates that the annals of karate is filled with figures such as this?

The tools common to all empty-handed defensive traditions (karate) include techniques of punching and associated methods of impact; kicking, leg maneuvers and related practices; checking, trapping, parrying and blocking; foot-work, body dynamics and posturing. Such standardized methods support four separate divisions of application, 1. Seizing, capturing, and associated techniques of restraint, 2. Neurological shutdowns, 3. Ways of attacking the respiratory system, and 4. Counters and ways of paralyzing.
 

Individual applications (bunkaijutsu) include twisting bone and locking joints (kansetsuwaza,) separating tendon away from it and digging into the cavities of the body unprotected by the skeletal structure (tuidijutsu,) throws and take downs (nagewaza,) groundwork and grappling (newaza,) air & blood strangulation's (shimewaza,) impacting or traumatizing anatomically vulnerable zones of the body (kyushojutsu.)

A body of moral philosophy, which was shaped to govern the behavior of those few who choose to embrace such brutal standards, further supports these phenomena. Simultaneously, methodic introspection teaches the karateka that man's true enemy lies within and it is there that all battles should be first fought and won before its value can ever permeate the learner.

There can be no question that there is definitely a uniqueness to the way karate is taught and practiced in Okinawa compared to the way it is embraced in say Kaliningrad, Dublin, or even the Big Apple. However, such uniqueness must reflect an understanding, or a lack thereof, the universal principles upon which it rest, nothing more and nothing less. In spite of the varying personalities, politics and agendas, of those most responsible for imparting such traditions, the principles upon which they rest always remain constant and intact.  (For anyone interested in such a study, I spent considerable time and effort a few weeks ago addressing such issues in a non-related post entitled "On Ko Chi Shin" [To know the old is to understand the new]. Please check that one. I am sorry but I cannot
remember the number of the digest.)

Donohue: The contributions of the Okinawans in transforming what have often been rather florid and relatively ineffectually executed Chinese systems, in conjunction with native fighting skills, into useful, practical fighting arts, on the other hand, are hard to deny.

McCarthy: I think that you must be confusing the flowery back-flip ineffective stuff that you see on TV or in the Wushu tournaments with those local old brutally effective Fujian precursor traditions, which formed the foundation from which came karate. I bet that if you were able to travel to Fujian (China) and evaluate some of the old and local gongfu traditions there (Monk Fist, White Crane, Tiger Boxing etc.) as I have for so long, I am certain that even you might change your present position.  Moreover, I have many colleagues in Okinawa and elsewhere who would also vehemently disagree with you.  

Donohue: And a good part of the reason for their success and the popularity of their systems may have been their willingness to compromise with the government and the dominant socio-political currents of the times _ to bend with the wind.  Whether this helped their martial arts systems is highly questionable.  In some cases, it seems clearly to have been harmful. Popularity and prodigious spread of a system often go hand in hand with dilution of its worth as a set of fighting skills.

McCarthy: I disagree. Having done the research, I believe that most of the upwardly mobile Okinawan authorities of turn-of-the-century Toudijutsu (Chinese based Martial Arts) wanted very much to improve "their" locally practiced defensive traditions so that it could become accepted as part of the Japanese Budo community. Such evolution cannot be regarded as simply jumping on the bandwagon, being coerced, or compromising with the Japanese government. An honest attempt to create something from an inadequate practice resulted in the development of karate.  

Lest we also brand them Japanese sympathizers, by more closely evaluating the legacy of early pioneers like Funakoshi Gichin, Mabuni Kenwa, Hanashiro Chomo, Kyan Chotoku, Motobu Choki, Chibana Choshin, Kiyoda Juhatsu, Miyagi Chojun, Gusukuma Shimpan, Uechi Kanei, Chitose Tsuyoshi, Nakasone Genwa, and Toyama Kanken (to name most of the best known figures) interested parties could better understand the "standards" which existed prior to their time, and the systems that they subsequently established during the early years in post turn-of-the century Japan.

Among all the myriad of people who supported and assisted my research in Japan was the Konishi (Ryobukai) family. Konishi Yasuhiro, the onlyJapanese to ever learn directly under Funakoshi Gichin, Motobu Choki,Mabuni Kenwa, and Miyagi Chojun, wrote  "when compared to judo and kendo,karate was not yet a completely developed form of budo." It became hislife's dream and vocation to elevate karate to the same level as Japanese budo.

<big snip>

Donohue: <little snip> House karate (uchi no bujutsu or uchinadi) is almost
always better than dojo (commercial, public) karate.

McCarthy: Interesting, I have been hearing these terms "house karate," "clan karate," and "village "karate," for the last couple of years in American "KARATE" magazines, but can't for the life of me figure out what they mean. Are such terms the same as what locals used to refer to as "rural" or "provincial" folk traditions? If that is the case, then I know exactly what they are. Villagers in the old days during various folk festivals re-enacted the battles of Okinawa's old three-kingdom era. Such festivals are said to have been really something to see. However, the only one that I know that still remains these days is the one in Yaeyama (however, I could be wrong and there are others too.) Often I have seen various festivals in Okinawa where kumi odori (dances which depict fighting) have been demonstrated. They are wonderful to watch and appear to be quite fierce especially after quaffing some of the local awamori. Albeit there are those who might challenge my opinion (especially Mrs. Shiroma who is pretty handy with even the kitchen butcher knife) such folk traditions are just that, folk traditions and not Martial Arts.

An act ratified in 1724 abolished the stipend of hundreds of Unchinan Pechin Kemochi (Okinawans with rank and position) and their families. That act compelled families to reside in the surrounding countryside among the Uchinan mukei (Okinawan's without rank or position) and pursue alternative sources of employment. Some of those Pechin worked in law-enforcement, security, and or the court system and had the knowledge of defensive principles. I have never done extensive research into that area, nor has anyone else that I known of, but it is entirely possible that the roots of such traditions, if they do exist, surfaced from the "houses" (but probably more like backyards,) and clans of such villages.    

My lengthy research into much of what I have outlined in this post has, over the years, brought me into contact with authorities like (I'll just mention those connected in some way to Okinawan karate here) Uechi Kanei (Uechiryu,) Uechi Kanei (Shitoryu Kenpo,) Kuniba Shiyogo (Motobuha,) Inoue Motokatsu (Ryukyu Kobujutsu/Yuishinkai Karate,) Konishi Yasuhiro (Shindo Jinenryu Karatejutsu,) and Sakagami Ryusho (Itosuha,) Uehara Seikichi (Motobu Udundi,) Higa Yuchoku (Shorinryu,) Nakazato Joen (Shorinjiryu,) Miyahira Katsuya (Shorinryu,) Nagamine Shoshin (Matsubayashiryu,) Akamine Eiisuke (Ryukyu Kobudo,) Kinjo Hiroshi (Shuri Uchinadii/Yamaneryu kobudo,) Yagi Meitoku (Gojuryu,) Higa Seikichi (Gojuryu,) Nishihira Kosei (Matsumura Uchinadi,) Kishaba Chokei (Matsubayashiryu,)  Chitose Tsuyoshi (Chitoryu,) Kanzaki Shigekazu (Toonryu,) Hayashi Shingo (Kojoryu,) Hokama Tetsuhiro (historian, Gojuryu/kobudo,)  Shimabukuro Eizio (Shorinryu,) Tokashiki Iken (Tomarite/Gojuryu,) Miyazato Eiichi (Gojuryu ,) Sakumoto Tsuguo (Ryueiryu,) Shinzato Katsuhiko (Matsubayashiryu/Yamaneryu Kobudo,) Matayoshi Shinhou Kingairyu Okinawa kobudo,) Nakamoto Masahiro (Shurite/Taira Kobudo,)
Miyagai Ken (son of Miyagi Chojun,) Yabu Kenjiro (grandson of Yabu Kentsu,)
Takara Kuraiyoshi & Hokama Shuzen (anthropologists,)  Taira Koji
(historian,) Togo Shigemasa (present day head master of Jigenryu,)  Yabiku
Masakazu  (Yabiku Moden's grandson,)  Matsushita Kyocho (Kyushinryu,) Toma
Shian (karate/kobudo,) Iwae Tsuguo (Motoburyu,) Ohtsuka Tadahiko (Gojukensha,)and Nagamine Takayoshi (Matsubayashiryu.)  

As a matter of interest, I teach a totally application-based Okinawan tradition referred to as Koryu Uchinadi. Its system of defensive paradigms include: Happoren, Nepai, Hakutsuru, Wando, Yara Kushankun (Gwuan Guite,) Matsumura Passai, Ryushan, Rakkaken, Fukyugata, Naifuanchin, Aragaki Seisan, Aragaki Unshu, Aragaki Niseshi, and Aragaki Sochin.

Oshiro (Ogushiku) Chojo, Kanagusuku Sanda, and Kanagusuku Shinko handed down the kobudo tradition I teach, to Kinjo (Kanagusuku) Hiroshi. Defensive paradigms include, Bojutsu:  Shirotaru, Yonegawa, Shuji, Sakugawa, Chinen Shikiyanaka, Ogushiku, Choun, Tokumine, and Tsuken Sunakake Eikute etc. Saijutsu: Hanta (Koura) Guwa, Kanagushiku, Tawada, Yaraguwa, and Hamahiga etc. The kobudo repertoire also includes nichogama, tanbo, eku, suruchin, tinbe/rochin, nunchaku, tekko, and tuifa etc.

Donohue: Mr. McCarthy and I are comparing apples to oranges.  He is talking of quantified, codified information of the sort available in libraries and government document repositories.  This is the meat of reality for historians.  However, much of human experience is not recorded on paper, even in these times of intrusive government, insurance companies, and direct merchants.  And much of what has been recorded has been subsequently lost, particularly in Okinawa, but also in Japan and China.

McCarthy:  Actually it is more like we are comparing what I know to what you know. I can assure anyone reading this post that the nature and content of my work is purely the culmination of years of painstaking research and, until it was published, did not appear in any quantified or codified publication in any libraries or government repositories. Moreover, I have also made sifting through years of unchallenged and uncorroborated oral tradition a religion of sorts, and love recounting Nagamine Shoshin's tumultuous quote "We have more fakes, phonies and frauds right here in Okinawa than you ever though of having in America."

Donohue: <snip> I also have to admit that in my work as an editor I've often beaten authors into submission by dumping facts and organizational strictures on them.

McCarthy: Being an author, I can't tell you how much people like me admire such commitment;-)

Donohue: The written history and the speculation upon it that Mr. McCarthy deals with is as fascinating to me as it seems to be to him.  I get all his books as soon as they come into print, and I read the source material listed in his bibliographies, when I have time.  However, I don't feel that this sort of information has much to do with my actual training or with anyone else's.  Nor do I feel that any organization anywhere can provide anything to match what can be provided by a single simple dedicated teacher who is willing to go to the trouble to teach you his stuff, however loosely the tradition may have been passed on to him and however loosely it may be passed on to you.  Many martial artists aren't fortunate enough to find this sort of real teacher.  For them, organizations and books have to serve as meager substitutes.

McCarthy: One point I remember from my analysis of Joe Campbell's work on Occidental's in Oriental Mythology was the lingering stereotypical idiosyncrasies of Western man. In this world of inflexible persona the Occidental expert of Oriental traditions is rarely if ever afforded the respect they work so hard to deserve.  Transcending age, sex, religion, nationality or lineage of one's teachers, every generation produces creative innovators who, in an effort to breath life back into a ritualized tradition and keep it a living experience for the like-minded people it serves, reinterpret the universal principles upon which it rests. In doing so, it is not unique traditions which are established but rather more up-to-date methods of imparting principles which never change.

<big snip>

Donohue: I'm an amateur martial artist, as are my teachers, as were their teachers. I do respect some professional martial artists, but in general I hold amateur martial artists in higher regard.  It is professionals who feel the need to organize and govern, to restrict admission to the profession to those who share similar beliefs and goals, and to keep the skills and services -- in the language of economics -- a scarce commodity.  This is fine, as long as the professionals don't attempt to interfere with or influence the amateurs.  Some professions obviously must be heavily regulated.  I wouldn't want to have my appendix removed by an amateur surgeon or a graduate of the Acme "Surgery in One Easy Lesson" correspondence course.  Martial arts, however, are just that --arts – and not professions.  To try to force an art into the mold of a profession can only diminish the value of the art.

McCarthy: Like any profession (and karate is an honorable profession to many, as is painting, music, and sculpture to others) there's bound to be both good and bad. But let's not throw everyone into one basket. It's ludicrous to believe that all professionals are bad. Conversely, the same could be said of amateurs. Over the years I have had the pleasure of befriending many competent amateurs, and professionals too. Yet, I would be misleading you if I were also to say that in both divisions they're no serious attitudinal problems, power-thirsty exploiters, ego-related conflicts, or, and forgive my language, bullshit artists and weekend warriors! Without ever having a day's lesson in the manly arts, I wonder if Sir Winston was addressing someone's standards in karate when he wrote, "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma?"

Donohue: Diversity is good and exciting, uniformity is numbing.  Part of the fun in being a martial artist is in the quest for the real thing _holding out for the chili dog or cheese dog among the ordinary wiener dogs of life.  For you vegetarians, think of the difference between a garden grown tomato and a hothouse, gassed, pink rock you can get in any supermarket. The garden variety has blemishes, is bumpy, and is inconveniently sized, but the taste is real.  Anything we can buy packaged and sanitized, standardized and smoothed to a common denominator (whether the lowest or not) is hardly worth having.

McCarthy: Your wonderful flare for stating the culinary obvious erroneously presupposes that uniformity in karate training is a bad thing. I disagree. Uniformity is the principal fabric with which foundations are woven. Without a foundation upon which to rest, how can one ever develop effective diversity?  After all, even the chili, cheese and super dogs, came from the plain old stadium steak. Moreover, if grandma had not systematically cultivated that garden we'd never get those bumpy and juicy tomatoes in the first place;-)

Donohue: This pertains especially to martial arts.  Standardization breeds mediocrity.  Having to deal with someone who is junior to you chronologically, in training time, and in martial skill being awarded the title of hanshi, while you remain a mere generic black belt, is a trifling price to pay.

McCarthy: True enough, however, without a system of standards being first established, how could mediocrity ever be transcended? Without it, we would simply never have a point from which to embark. With it, any person, chronological to you or otherwise, could never conscientiously advertise him/herself as a Hanshi. "Do Mu Gen"  (There can be no end to learning)

Donohue: Thank you Mr. McCarthy.  I respect your work and talents as well.  I suppose we'll never agree on many things, but agreement is not a necessary commodity for harmonious co-existence.  I'm glad that you've made your presence felt in this forum -- it's a great stimulus for me;-)

McCarthy: Thank you for your courtesy, etiquette and manners, it is the first time I have experienced it during the few encounters I have been subject to during my brief history with this mode of communication. I have really enjoyed debating such a provocative issue with you and can't help but feel as if a camaraderie has unfolded in its midst. I look forward to the next topic and sincerely believe that, given the same body of information for each of us to evaluate, we would most probably agree on many issues surrounding that which has brought us together.  Please call me Patrick in the future, my two other friends do!

Kindest regards

Patrick McCarthy

PS:  If anyone is still interested in finding out more about the Dai Nippon Butokukai (DNBK,) but cannot communicate in Japanese, you are invited to consider contacting its international chairman, Dr. H. Hamada c/o of College of Education, HPER, Old Dominion University Norfolk, Va. USA 23508
 

He's a wonderful person, and will be able to advise you accordingly.  In spite of what you may read here and there, or hear from others, there no one else is qualified to accept membership in the genuine Butokukai. "On Ko Chi Shin" (To know the old is to understand the new)
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society http://203.32.133
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