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Back in 1997 I was new to the internet and the CyberDojo. Almost immediately I found a lengthy dialogue between Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue.
Patrick was a well known competitor, practitioner and author on his arts. He knew George as his book editor at Tuttle, but not as a martial artist.
George had been raised in Japan, was on an old Samuri tv series as a youth playing the younger version of the samurai for flashbacks when he learned vartiou lessons. He later trained in karate on Okinawa. Established a Kashiba Juku group in the states and eventually became the martial arts editor for Tuttle Publications.
Knowing that Patrick was in a somewhat heated discussion on the CD when George weighed in. Beginning what would be a lengthy discussions of an extremely erudite level of discourse. I do not know of another discussion of similar character. A discussion that does not exist today.
This will be challenging but well worth the effort.
Because of it's length I am breaking it into several parts.
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From Digest 1385 Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:10:12 CDT
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:44:20 +0000
From: JANOSND@mail.bay.k12.fl.us
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Kishaba Juku
Message-ID: <6F48DEE2A60@mail.bay.k12.fl.us>
Dear CDer's and especially George Donahue and Patrick McCarthy,
I have really enjoyed the rather lively and thought provoking debate and discussion being offered by these two scholars. I'm sure that everyone on the Cyber dojo has been educated and entertained as I have been by their posts. This is the best example of how this forum can enrich our training by exposure to well thought out ideas and research. I do not wish to interfere with this ongoing discussion, however, there are a few points that I would like to address for the benefit of my teachers and fellow practitioners.
Mr. McCarthy wrote:
>Although it has a catchy sound, I must admit I've never heard the Japanese term "Juku" (A term first used in Edo Period Japan to describe the small but elite schools of learning in which the samurai warrior received an academic education) used in connection with Okinawan karate. These days the term "juku" usually refers to a place where Japanese (that includes Okinawans as well) students go to in order to receive the kind of preparatory study not generally adhered to in regular studies. The English nickname for Juku is "Cram School."
The term "Juku" as applied to our style of practice was suggested by Shinzato Katsuhiko Sensei along with Kishaba Chokei Sensei during an organizational meeting held at Shinzato Sensei's home in October of 1995. We had, until that time, been informally using Kishaba-ha to designate Kishaba Sensei's methods of karate training, practice and usage. The suffix "ha", according to Shinzato Sensei, professor of linguistics at Kokusai University in Okinawa, "Sounds like gangsters to Okinawan people." Juku was suggested by Shinzato Sensei as a classier term that best describes the cooperation and advanced training and learning associated with our tradition of practice. I attended this meeting as an advanced student of Kishaba Sensei along with several Okinawan yudansha and Chris Walton of Corvallis, Oregon. Mr. Donahue was unable to attend, so I carried his contributions and comments. We have all been students of Shinzato and Kishaba Sensei since 1984.As you must have seen, given your description of the training and practice offered there, these two men are not concerned with formalities and rules. They are concerned with teaching and practicing excellent Ryukyu Bujutsu.
Mr. McCarthy goes on to say:
>I have every reason to believe that someone, somewhere, under some just banner, will, sooner or later, systematize whatever it is that Mr. Donohue is learning and exploit it in the same way that everything else has been exploited in the Western marketplace. A perfect example of such exploitation is Mr. Kishaba's Yamaneryu kobudo and his brother's interpretation of Nagamine Shoshin's Matsubayashiryu karatedo. I remember only too well the first opportunity that I had to experience their system in Okinawa in 1985 at Prof. Shinzato Katsuhiko's home in Yonabaru. How impressed I was with his understanding of body dynamics and fluid motion.
Having trained with both Kishaba Chokei and Kishaba Chogi in their dojo in Okinawa, I can assure you that their arts have not been "exploited" in any way. The current Yamane ryu craze in this country does not really represent what is being taught by "Younger" Kishaba. He will not even demonstrate in public due to his nature and convictions to his art. Few people even get to train with him- invitation being the preferred way to gain access to his dojo.
Mr. McCarthy continues:
>Rather than consider such a system unique or special, I merely assimilated that experience, with the twenty years of knowledge I had already amassed, and continually synthesized it with other that which my research would ultimately bring me into contact with. Over the subsequent years I spent training and painstakingly researching the
defensive traditions in places like Okinawa, Fujian, Malaysia, Philippines, Taiwan, etc., I was able to use such experiences as a kind of yardstick with which to measure the depth and value of otherstandards and systems.
I understand what you are saying and it is very sound practice ,and spending a day or two training with Shinzato Sensei and Kishaba Sensei can be a profound experience. However, in order to fully understand the scope and depth of Kishaba Sensei's contributions, a much longer study must be undertaken, and not lightly. I am not trying to infer that you take take any task lightly, your contributions have been many and no doubt exhausting. I just wanted to make sure that some of the newer students on the list don't mistake what we are talking about as a way to "chop suey" (yum) martial art training.
I really did not intend on taking up so much space, for that I am sorry. I would also like to personally thank Mr. McCarthy for all that he has given us through the years. I never fail to buy your work as I know it will be more valuable to me than the money spent.
Paris Janos
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From Digest 1386 Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:12:48 CDT
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:48:17 +1000
From: "Patrick McCarthy" <Bujin@bigpond.com>
To: <karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Kishaba Juku
Message-ID: <09554726508210@onaustralia.com.au>
Kishaba Juku
Dear Paris Janos,
Greetings from Australia. Thanks for your input and I certainly would not consider it interference.
I really don't know much of your school as Mr. Donohue made little comment about its principal teachers. However, I certainly know the Kisahba brothers and even to this day maintain a good relationship with Prof. Shinzato. I have nothing but respect and admiration for all three men. You are indeed fortunate to have such skillful, dedicated and admirable teachers.
Knowing Prof. Shinzato as I do (and for those of you reading this post who do not know him, please take my word that his is diligent, powerful, intelligent, friendly, genuinely modest, honestly humble, and incredibly skillful, and a pretty good cook too:-) In my opinion, he is also one of the most dynamic masters I have had the good fortune to ever befriend.) I would have never guessed that he would have found a reason to attach a name to his school. Therefore, I must apologize if my comments have inferred something to the contrary.
The term "ha" (i.e. Motobu"ha," Kiyoda'ha,") indicates sect (i.e. the Motobu sect of Tomarite, or the Kiyoda sect of Higashionna's teachings) but is customarily used in Japanese politics. Perhaps the issue of Japanese politics might be better described elsewhere. Suffice to say, Prof. Shinzato's decision to use the term Juku is a more unique and befitting term, as it would conjures up the image of a small but elite facility where peaceful warriors gather to refine and polish the skills of their vocation.
I am quite familiar with what is taught at the Kishaba Yonabaru dojo of Prof. Shinzato. I am also familiar with where and from whom his teachers also learned their system of standards. However, in the same breath, let me also say that I have never pursued any formal training with the men in question, and would never lead anyone to believe that I am anything more than an researcher interested in the big picture. I highly regard Prof.
Shinzato as my esteemed colleague, as I am sure he does me. The last time we met was not long after one of my parents died. It was a very sad time for me, but he revealed a side of his personality that only served to deepen our relationship.
My comment about exploitation of the "good stuff," was concerning a rumor that I have heard here in Australia that some American video company has recently produced tapes on Kishaba method (sorry for the use of this term) Yamaneryu, and Matsubayashi karate (under the name Uchinadi) which features Mr. Oshiro Toshihiro who, as you may or may not know, also comes from the Kishaba school.
As for understanding the scope of that which Master Kishaba teaches, well, I assure you that I do not take such people, or such profound contributions, lightly. I will leave that for those of you who have wisely chosen to follow his system and standard of teaching. As for me, years of diligent effort have separated me from the pack, brought me into contact with the source, and delivered me back to reveal the "secrets" of karate/kobudo. I am no longer seeking but dedicated to teaching. My message is simplistic; virtue before vice, values before vanity and principles before personalities.
I honestly look forward to meeting you and Mr. Donohue one day. Please extend my best to Prof. Shinzato if and when the next time you correspond with him.
Kindest regards
Patrick McCarthy
"On Ko Chi Shin" (To know the old is to understand the new)
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society http://203.32.12.133
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Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:25:04 +1000
From: "Patrick McCarthy" <Bujin@bigpond.com>
To: <karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: KARATE digest 1385
Message-ID: <00361154637917@onaustralia.com.au>
Dear Mr. Paris Janos
I only just this morning have had the opportunity, courtesy of my Australian colleague Bob McMahon (who has been following this discussion,) to view the Tsumnami Video Production of Yamanni Kobudo, and Uchinadi featuring Oshiro Toshihiro. I must admit that both are informative and really well produced. Oshiro's skill has certainly not waned since I first met him through Jim Silvan during the mid-eighties. If anything it is better now. The quality of the video production is equaled only by Oshiro's skill.
After having reviewed my earlier posting (about "exploitation") that I wrote very late last night, I just wanted to prevent any potential misunderstandings that may be inadvertently deduced. The point being that "what Mr. Kishaba is teaching is already available on the market."
Kindest regards
Patrick McCarthy
"On Ko Chi Shin" (To know the old is to understand the new)
International Ryukyu Karate Research Society http://203.32.12.133
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