I have not read the cyber dojo for years - luckily for me :-) But I do read the Sabaki list now and then and have seen Dan's posts there.
I would have to say that Dan is very passionate and supportive of promoting Okinawa karate in general and for that I am very thankful.
That said, I do not like some of the political posturing and overtones that are part of his posts. In part it probably comes down to his personality and his current postion with the Renmei. At any rate, I have never seen any of Dan's (nor his students') karate and therefore cannot comment. Usually you can judge a teacher fairly quickly by his students.
I was a little surprised at the Sabaki post as well regarding his proficiency in Goju-ryu kata. I consider myself and longtime student of Nahate and STILL not consider myself having any expertise in the
subject. Maybe after 30 years of training...
At any rate, perhaps Dan has proficiency in Goju-ryu, but it was definately a bold statement and sometimes people say things they shouldn't in the heat of things.
At any rate, I hope that you get to have a face-to-face meeting with him if only to find out first hand what his true understanding of karate is: physically and techically, but more importantly mentally and emotionally.
Mario McKenna
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Sensei Smith wrote:
...I do not claim to be a Goju Ryu practioner...I will be happy to perform the kata whenever the opportunity arises... ...I stand ready to be corrected when I go to Okinawa and do more research...
...I have never had a Goju Ryu teacher comment on the startng and ending point of a kata...
Dear Sensei Smith,
I believe that you are probably one of the most well spoken/written experts of Okinawa Karate in North America. I was perusing through Nagamine Sensei's - The Essence of Okinawa Karate-Do only to find absent a complete embusen diagram of his kata. Not knowing Shorin-Ryu, I would have assumed, with my limited exposure to the ryuha, that ending and finishing at the same place is a minor point. I have learned differently because of this forum. I am humbled by the amount of knowledge that you and others have within these virtual walls called Cyber-Dojo.
After looking through your supporting facts to your claim, I can understand why you would come to an erroneous conclusion that all Okinawa kata begin and end in the same place. Unfortunately, this is opinion does not hold true for Goju-Ryu. Perhaps, this is because your expertise in this ryuha does not match that of your own. Admittedly, I am confident that you know far more about Goju-Ryu than I know about Shorin-Ryu and I trust that your knowledge is based upon your experiences in Okinawa as is Sensei Wilson's. I sorry that you feel that it is necessary to go to Okinawa to resolve this. What happens when you return with an answer and then everyone else says, "I'm going to get my answer from Okinawa too". I though that the purpose of this forum is for experienced individuals to share ideas. You have admitted that you are not a Goju-Ryu practitioner and that no Goju-Ryu teacher has ever commented that it is important to end and begin in the same place. Yet when Sensei Wilson has offered he opinion based on his experience on Goju-Ryu, it is shrugged off with the response that you are going to go to Okinawa. I can understand the frustration of Sensei Wilson and Ms. Buan (Sensei?).
I believe that we are all entitled to an opinion and I think that it is excellent that you have provided facts to substantiate your point of view. You can go to Okinawa to find your answers, or demonstrate your Kata, or even provide more literature about Goju-Ryu. Regardless of these attempts to substantiate yourself, defending your initial claim that all Okinawa Kata begin and end in the same place is simply swimming up current - you will get nowhere.
I look forward to hearing what comes of your Okinawa trip.
Sincerely,
Sean Wong
www.markhammeibukai.com
www.sparmate.com
Train Hard, Train Smart, Train From The Heart
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I cannot add much here, but I did spend a week at an event Dan hosted in Atlanta, and here is what I thought:
he may have had a very high level of technical ability, but that is somewhat hard to see. I do not know Shorin technique well enough to say for certain, but he is sufficiently out of physical condition that his technique lacks some sharpness due to that alone.
As for his Goju knowledge, it did not come up. He has trained in the Jinbukan, and with other Goju teachers, and said to me that he knows the system, but I do not think he trains it.
On the other hand, he has been involved in the martial arts in Okinawa for a long time, and seemed to me to have the respect of, at least, Shimabukuro sensei. There is something to that, I believe. He also has worked very hard for the promotion of the Okinawan arts, which many senior practitioners have not. I respect that. While I believe that some of this is political posturing on his part, I feel some is genuine.
He choose a route with Itokazu sensei and the Kodokan that, I believe, is at least as political a decision, due to his association with the Rengokai, as a training one. However, he is focusing some of the efforts of his rather extensive organization here in the states on training and preserving the Matayoshi kobudo. I am not sure he is going about it the right way, but then again I am not sure there is a right way, short of shipping a bunch of students to Okinawa for a couple of years.
I was surprised to see after his long association with the island his near-total lack of ability in the Japanese language and diet, down to pronunciation of simple training-related words, but I do not really think that should surprise me... He also definitely has a name-dropping tendency, however, I would probably be pretty pleased if a bunch of senior teachers had stayed in my house as well. (I can just imagine the breakfast conversation with group he had staying there during the Atlanta event.)
As a whole, my experience with him was good- he was polite, welcoming, and knowledgeable. I did not feel he had much real skill in the Kobudo, or at least had not maintained it. His karate I did not speak to, but I didn't do any karate at all the week I was there, so its hard to say.
Don't know if that helps, but I think that if you are looking to see how he stands up on the floor, you might be disappointed, but I always find it hard to tell, as physical condition is only part of the equation. I think his main focus in the arts right now is organizational, not in personal training, but I also think we have all gone through periods where we spent more time thinking and writing that sweating, for whatever reasons, and that can shift. If he succeeds in some of his organizational goals, it may do a great deal of good for the Okinawan arts, I dunno, but either way I do think he is trying.
cheers,
Fred Loese
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Jamal Measara in Germany and I have been active practioners of Matayoshi Kobudo for more than 25 years. Since both Measara sensei and I had become members of the Jinbukan, even though keeping
relationships with Matayoshi sensei, we had standardized all Seibukan dojo on Matayoshi kobudo through the Jinbukan. With the need to support the Kodokan and the demise of Jinbukan we are now supporting Matayoshi sensei's son and Itokazu sensei.
Dear Dan Smith Sensei; above you wrote of the demise of the Jinbukan/Jinbukai founded by Kanei Katsuyoshi Sensei. He died in 1993 but the Jinbukan/Jinbukai carries on with Kawakami Sensei as Kancho,and Kanei Hitoshi Sensei as Hombu Shihan in the Chibana Dojo. There are Shibucho in the U.S., South America and Spain and Japan. Yes the Jinbukan/Jinbukai hit a rough spot after Kanei Sensei passed away but it has not died as you have indicated. We will carry on with Okinawan Goju Ryu and Kobudo as taught by Kanei Katsuyoshi Sensei and will teach it to any that wish to learn.
If I may get in on the start/stop thing: Sanchin,Tensho end at the same start/stop spot if you are doing 3 up 3 back, Saifa starts/stops at the same spot. All the other Goju Kata do not come back to the same spot.
From Toguchi Seikichi Sensei book Okinawan Goju-Ryu II pp 49; The crosspoint of 4 lines is called the kiten[basic point].Kata is arranged to start at this point and move toward any of those eight directions and finish on or around kiten. So for the most part we have 3 finish on kiten and 9 which do not in Okinawan Goju Ryu as taught at the Jinbukan.
The Matayoshi Kobudo Kata as I was taught only Nicho Sai start/ stop in the same spot. All most all other Kata are well forward of the start spot. I have review tape of alot of high ranking Matayoshi practitioner living and dead: and some of those who performed Matayoshi Kobudo Kata at the World meets on Okinawa and they did not make it back to kiten/start spot.
I think this is a great thread and very informative and an eye opener for us all on what we think Okinawan Karate is or is not.
So as the Jinbukan comes up on its 38th year teaching Okinawan Goju Ryu and Kobudo and i come up on my 45th year studying Okinawan Karate and 31st year studying Okinawan Goju Ryu and Kobudo as taught at the Jinbukan lets all keep learning.
thank you
bill steigner
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