12/31/2008
Just some thoughts for discussion. Hokama Sensei's book, A Timeline of Karate, that Joe Swift translated made me think about this deeper than I had in the past.
Pre WW II there was an abundance of highly skilled karate-ka in Okinawa.
Sakugawa Sensei was born in 1733 and died in 1815.
Higaonna Sensei was born in 1853 and died in 1915.
Matsumura Sensei was born in 1797 and died in 1889.
Aragaki Sensei was born in 1840 and died in 1918.
Itosu Sensei was born in 1830 and died in 1916.
During this period Okinawa Te was thriving, but it was underground so to speak as it was not introduced to the public until 1902. Higaonna Kanryo Sensei began teaching at public schools in 1905. When karate was introduced into the school systems it began changing.
Following these founders, the next generation was also highly skilled and had learned Okinawa te's deadly bujutsu techniques and methods. This generation are the ones who popularized Okinawa te and transformed it into karate and spread it throughout the world. This generation of highly talented martial artist included Miyagi Chojun
(1888-1953, Juhatsu Kyoda (1887-1968), Gichin Funakoshi (1868-1957), Choki Motobu (1870-1944), Shoshin Nagamine (1907-1996), and Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1952). Then the war hit.
Following WW II there was a gap or lack of instructors for some time. It took many years for Okinawa to rebuild following the war. The last thing on anyone's mind was teaching karate. The Okinawan's were focused on shelter and being able to eat. Many karate students were killed in the war or died after the war, in part due to living conditions. Many had lost family members and their top students. Almost all of the records and artifacts pertaining to karate were destroyed in the war. More than 142,000 Okinawan's died in the battle of Okinawa. 90% of all of the buildings on the island were destroyed during the war.
This period is significant because the battle of Okinawa occurred in 1945. Miyagi Sensei died in 1953.
Miyazato Sensei was born in 1922, so he was 23 years of age when the battle occured. In 1957 he built the Jundokan dojo at age 35.
Toguchi Sensei was born in 1917. During the battle he was 28 years of age. He built his dojo in 1954 at the age of 37.
Yagi Sensei was born in 1912, he was 33 years old when the battle occured and he built his dojo in 1952 (some say 1950, many say 1953 after Miyagi died)at the age of 40.
Higa Seko Sensei was born in 1884 and was 61 years of age during the battle. In 1947 he opened the first dojo on Okinawa following the war at the age of 63, which was funded in part or whole by Toguchi Sensei.
As can be seen from the above dates, only Higa Seko Sensei had trained with both Higaonna Kanryo and Miyagi Chojun Sensei. Juhatsu Kyoda and Kenwa Mabuni were the only students still alive that trained directly with Higaonna Kanryo Sensei.
In the 50's the karate world lost Miyagi, Funakoshi, and Mabuni; a big loss indeed.
So following the battle in 1945, two years later, Higa Seko Sensei opened his dojo in 1947. Not another Goju dojo opened until 1952 (maybe even 1953), then Nagamine Sensei opened his dojo in 1953, then Toguchi Sensei opened his dojo in 1954, and Miyazato Sensei opened his in 1957. So other than Higa Sensei, there was a seven or eight year gap.
Also, other than Higa Seko Sensei, all of Miyagi's students who opened a dojo in the 50's were young karate-ka who's lives had been disrupted due to the war for the proceeding seven or eight years. Their focus could not have been on training until at least 4-6 years following the war as they were rebuilding their own lives, their country, and caring for their family. We know from interviews with Miyazato, Itokazu, Aragaki, An'ichi Miyagi, and a few others, that hardly any of Miyagi's students trained immediately following the war.
There is also a lot of controversy pertaining to how long each of these students had trained with Miyagi. I believe the 6-8 year gap explained above and the amount of time each student trained with Miyagi is the reason that there are so many versions of Goju Ryu.
Perhaps Masanobu Shinjo had the right idea when he sought out each of Miyagi's personal senior students and learned their speciality kata from each of them. This may be a comment that would offend many, but it is my opinion that the generation of instructors following the war were not nearly as talented as those instructors who lived and practiced before the war (Miyagi, Kyoda, Mabuni, Funakoshi, etc.). It's possible that the generation of students following the instructors who passed away in the 50's, spent part of their study with their teachers learning some bujutsu of the original Okinawa te and most of their practice studying public karate. Matsumura Sensei stated their was a lot of difference in the karate that he learned in the early 30's compared to the karate he witnessed in the 50's and later. I believe this is in part due to the gap discussed above and the misfortune that there was a war followed by the passing away of many of the primary karate exponents of the time, which created a significant difference between them and their students who had studied with them before the war.
Personally from my research largely based on interviews with Itokazu and Matsumura, along with what I have read, that Yagi and Miyazato are both full of shit (no offense, remember I am from Miyazato's lineage). I think that Toguchi from his training with Higa and Miyagi, probably learned more than Yagi or Miyazato. Toguchi's Goju certainly contains more Ju than the other branches. I also think that Higa learned and knew the most, hands down, just based on: he trained with Higaonna, he opened the first dojo, he was the only one who received permission from Miyagi to teach, and he trained all of his life. He was still demonstrating kata even when his body would no longer respond for him.
Okay, throw the rocks and Happy New Year!
Steve Wilson
Excellent resume, Steve.
Goju-ryu was a mirage after WWII.
When we compare Goju today with Chibana's Shorin we can see that Goju is very incomplete. This is an evidence that Goju was lost and re-created years after Miyagi's death, and its re-creation was too much imperfect (without structure) and full of gaps. Miyagi was a strong man in the youngness and a powerful fighter, and his disciples got the master destructive power and were motivated to use it.
I learned that before WWII it was mainly a body building method accelerated with Sanchin and use of extreme power to punch, smash and grab. Goju pre-WWII was brutal, and the Goju fame comes from this period. Goju post-WWII was just a shadow of the old savage, rude and extremely violent Te. Gojuka had a bad fame before and this was not good to the new age business.
(For example, after be defeated together his students by gojukas in Okinawa, Gigo Funakoshi and Nakayama decided change the Shotokan to a competitive karate fighting method, after moving back to the mainland).
After the war, moralism and pacifism changed the face of old Te, and today we practice a socialized form of martial sports. We are all dancers today: technicality and rhetoric from our times want forget the brutality and supreme law of the force and power that was the true Goju. We are no more those proletarians living in hard times, but sophisticated educated people with high social sense.
I am convinced that Higashionna Te was a strong version of primitive Nagahama's Naha-te boxing structured on an old version of Naifanchin (see Ohtsuka researches), the training exercise that was the real Sanchin, and a boxing training form that we call Suparimpei, together hard body conditioning and some knowing of practical medicines. A very efficient fighting method can be building from these simple training system.
A Happy 2009. Fernando
Steve, Fernando,
This is an interesting question in a number of ways.
1) I think that the timeline Steve points out is reasonable, with one exception. These days we have a tendency to consider people with 10 years experience in the arts, or someone in their mid to late 30s, still young. The "real" teachers are older, and have more experience. I do not believe this was always the case. I think that until more recently "experts" could be much younger. Taking examples from other arts, it currently takes around 20 years to get a menkyo kaiden in Jigen Ryu. However, the founder learned much of what he incorporated into the system in less than a year in Kyoto, plus his earlier training. There are records in the system of people earning Menkyo in 2 or 3 years. No matter how esoteric the training, if the core principals- rooting, maai, vital points, etc., could not be well learned in a few years, the system would be, IMO, a poor one. One of the key elements of the gentrification of the arts Fernando mentions is, to me, the need for longer learning periods to get the system internalized.
It may be that today we turn out a better, more complete, artist, but after 10 or 15 years, instead of 3. The systems may have evolved into something more powerful at the end (or not), but this end now requires LOTS more time. This would not have worked, and for that reason, I consider it possible that Miyagi's students from before the war may have had what we would consider now a good deal of training. So lack of appropriate training may not have been the main reason for the discontinuity of practice before and after the war. I would be more inclined to think that the simple break in opportunity to practice would be more of a reason, but again the break may have been more about teaching than training- I know that when my life has been extremely stressful I have less time to train, but I have always made time, as the practice has been a chance for something internal in crazy times, and I would hazard that the same might have been true for those folks. In some ways that would make for more of a break for the next generation...
2) Fernando's comments about "not good for a new age business" seem more to the point than anything else. I don't have the experience in Chibana's Shorin Ryu to make clear statements about it, but from having practiced application, talked at length about principals inherent in kata, and looked at training methodology with Shorin Ryu practitioners, I would not necessarily say that it, as it is currently trained, is that much more coherent than Goju. The kata seem to go together a little better, and poorly done sanchin that gives so much Goju a bad name is missing, but they seem to be questing for answers to kata quesitons as much as Goju folks are. They are certainly not more "brutal" than current Goju practice, at least how I have been trained.
However, in the post-war training environment, business was a paramount factor in the arts staying alive. It was sold to other Okinawans, and it was sold to servicemen. It provided opportunities for the teachers to feed themselves and their families in harsh times. At the same time, there was a local reaction against the harsh militaristic mind-set of the pre-war days, and a new focus on "peace", and Okinawa, and Japan, as a "peaceful" place, and culture. Taking these things together, it seems natural to me that the brutal edge would be taken off the local martial arts, at least in part.
Finally, this is all further changed in the 60s and later by the rapid advent of competition. While this was a growing development in Japan before the war, according to folks I know, like Sakai, Gibo, Matayoshi, and Kimo, there was really no competitive practice in Okinawa before the mid 60s. An occasional bout, or competition with folks from Japan, but jyu kumite was brutal and dangerous, and not done much. There were no all-island competitions, and any time a competition did take place they had to figure out the rules, and taikai were pretty much demonstrations and parties. That changed in Okinawa very rapidly, and also created a huge shift in how the practice was both understood, and acted out.
I don't know what Higashionna's te was like, though I personally think it would be more recognizable than perhaps we would like to think in many ways, and completely foreign in others. I do think that the changes in the post-war training are really a function of wealth and peace as opposed to secrets being lost. As a personal example, Kimo sensei has had a dojo in Guatemala since the early 70s. These days its in a nice peaceful vacation town called Panahachel, but in the 80s it was closer to the capital. One of his old students came up from there for medical reasons in 87 and trained with us at UMass. We did the same kata, the same applications, and mostly the same training methods, but while we spent much of our time working on fitness, form and application, he and his students spent more time working on fitness, simple techniques, and body conditioning, and this guy (Miguel Carcuz) was fast, strong, and hard as iron. His technique was uglier, and I would not be surprised if he could not train in his 60s and 70s, but it was effective, and brutal. He trained for his environment, and in those days that was full of death and violence. That dictated a different approach, one less attuned to art and technical development, and more attuned to quick acquisition of ability to take and deliver damage.
Anyway, of course we are dancers today. We are also athletes. Maybe we can also function as combatants, but I for one do not want to actually engage in hand to hand combat to the death. It does not sound like nearly as much fun as hypothesizing about how one could more effectively train for it than we are now. :)
cheers,
and a joyful 2009 to everyone,
Fred
Hi Fred and All:
I agree that there have been periods in earlier times that students trained hard for 3-5 years and that was considered a long time to study because everyone eventually went to school, work, or war. I think a person can be taught a lot in a few years especially if they are a strong athelete and intelligent. Then they have their life to practice.
Still, I sincerely believe that the war created a long gap where practitioners weren't training at all or training at a minimum for a significant period of time 4-8 years of not training or receiving
instruction is a long period.
I think every Ryuha or branch of Goju has had that exceptional student walk in the door who became an outstanding karate-ka, which they would have become regardless of which door they first walked into. Meibukan has produced Ikenmiyagi, Seneha and other strong exponents of the art. Jundokan produced Chinen, Higaonna, Taira, and others so they did something right; but these individuals would have been good anywhere. Honestly, the "only" exceptional Shoreikan practitioner I have personally witnessed is Kayo Ong. I have trained with probably 200 Shoreikan people in my life and he is literally the only one who I found to be a high level practitioner, but I am sure there are many more. I have trained with several strong Shobukan folks and each of them were well conditioned (contact) and very fit. Some of the Goju Kai folks (Yamaguchi) have been some of the most fluid practitioners, look like Goju when performing, and have been very strong fighters. So Yamaguchi's group did something right because they develop talented people even though it is Japanese Goju. So I think all of the systems have produced some exceptional karate-ka.
Regarding Shorin Ryu, I have only been exposed to Seibukan and Matsubayashi. Zenpo has extremely strong basics and trains very hard as an individual. Matsubayshi is my personal favorite and had I walked in their door instead of the Goju door in 1973, I'm certain I would still be there.
This is troubling to many and most don't even know it, but I sincerely believe that most if not all of Miyagi's first generation students who went on to form their own systems have lied a lot. I have had Itokazu, Matsumura, Higaonna, and Miyazato personally tell me that Yagi trained hard from age 17-21 and then not again seriously until Miyagi died. Why would all of them tell the same story about the same person, separately. The whole world says that Miyazato focused on Judo. Guess what, Miyazato focused on Judo, pure and simple. I do not think he has ever in his life been a top notch karate-ka, although the world would disagree with me. The truth is, although I really, really like him, An'ichi Miyagi is not the man as Higaonna claims and he never has been.
He is a wonderful person, but even in his early 50's his technique was nothing to awe over, plain and simple, he was never all that. He certainly has never been Miyagi's best by a long shot.
All of the above simply means they are all guilty of the same thing. Lying and creating stories to make themselves the main man so that their organization would grow. The military punch card system where the US military paid the karate instructors based on how many times the card was punched was big incentive to have a dojo and be a popular instructor during post WW II. Can blame them for wanting to eat and rebuild their lives.
In the end, they all heard and seen more from Miyagi than any of us; so regardless of how many lies they have told, they are still closer to the source of our art than we are. All of the branches have also developed some highly skilled practitioners. Higaonna, Chinen, Taira, Terauchi, Ong, Zenei, Ikenmiyagi, Seneha, and others are all very good karate-ka know matter how you judge a practitioner. I just wish there was not so much bullshit out there, it is insulting that some people think we buy all of this nonsense.
Cheers
Steve
Hi,
Miyagi never was regular in his teachings or created a complicated method to left to the posterity, like Shotokan, Wado or Shorin. His method was based in Sanchin, body building and power, no more than this, like the Kanbun hardcore method. Very simple to train more than 3-4 years.
Motobu did the same: his method was makiwara, naifanchin and 12 kumiai-jutsu techniques and a lot of sake. Most of his students stay with him for about 6-12 months, time enough to good fights in the red light ward. This simplicity based in brutal power has been rejected by our sophisticated and educated minds.
No offense intended please.
Fernando
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