Isshin - Concentration the Art: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking

I was recently reading several interviews with senior Okinawan Shorin-ryu instructors, Iha Seikichi and Miyahira Katsuya, and in the course of those discussions they both made the same point about kicking.

http://www.okinawankarateandkobudoinstitute.com/Seikichi%20Iha%20Sensei.htm

“In the “old days,” the kick was never extended past the extended punch. You always kicked within the extended fist. It is too difficult to do nowadays and students just ignore this concept. Nowadays, the students often seek the easier way and extend their kicks way past their fist. This is the sport kick, but it is okay for those who do not really understand kicking.”

“Remember that in kicking, the foot itself must be tight with the leg loose. You then hinge the kick out. The kick must be chambered, then kick and then re-chambered before the foot is set down. All the kicks in Shorin-ryu are done with the toes. I think that 85% of all the kicks are done mid-body. We then do have a thrust made to the head, but only about 15% of the time.”

Miyahira Katsuya stated, “The Shorin-ryu stydent must work on retracting their kicks quickly. They must also practice kicking within an arm’s reach. This is highly important in doing good Shorin-ryu kicks. The kick does not extend out but within the length of one’s arm.”

IMO, this fully describes how Shimabuku Sensei was kicking in our video reference of his technique.

Kicking at the range of direct engagement, striking distance. Fully raising the leg and then kicking out and retracting the kick, at a very close distance.

Victor

Hi Rich,

I don't offer this as proof of anything, but as something provocative to consider. One of the more interesting developments from our computer age is continual new material to consider, as well as ongoing translations of older 'stuff' we haven't seen before.

I certainly think Okinawan senior's descriptions of their own arts worth pondering.

When I watch Shimabuku Sensei's kicking technique on the video's, I can see a connection to that point of view.

Of course this doesn't mean you can't kick at a further range, either, or that it doesn't have relevance.

I do look forward to your own observations.

Victor

isshim2@... writes:

Of course this doesn't mean you can't kick at a further range, either, or that it doesn't have relevance.

Victor,

I agree with what you wrote in your last email. The above statement says it all. I actually stood up, arm extended and kicked a few times to see where my kicks were in relation to my arm. It passed my hand by a few inches (about 6") and I have long arms. Anything less chokes the kick. I retract my kicks fast and think of kicking myself in the butt with the heel. The rest of what Iha sensei wrote I agree with.

This is just what I needed, more food for thought, another thing to study. Good article and a keeper.

Thanks or should I say gee thanks,

Richard

Rich and Victor,

Mr Harrill taught front snap kick with the ball of the foot and the toe's at this distance, same length as a punch, with the ball of the foot as the weapon it tends to be an upward angle kick into the abdomen, this took a little bit of time to get use to,

John

I was taught the same kick by Harrill Sensei. Once he tapped you with it you understood it's effectiveness immediately. ~Lee Norton

Lee is right, the knee is as high as you can get it almost,

My best example as to were to find the kick in Kata is in Kusanku were we do the backfist Front kick at the same time, the knee comes up and almost touches the elbow.

John

Some katas I was taught to kick low with either the ball of the foot or the shin to targets like snkle, shin or groin; others used the ball of the foot to the inner thigh or groin; still others into the abdomen.

~Lee

Kerker added:

Mr Harrill taught front snap kick with the ball of the foot and the toe's at this distance, same length as a punch

Rich recalls:

Let's not forget the brush. Ahh yes the brush kick. The one where he kicked you on the outside of the lower leg, in an upward/brushing motion. Then there was the return to chamber heel kick. The kick would either strike or pass it's intended target and on the way back, just when you thought the worst was over, he nailed you with the heel as the foot returned to chamber. I got these two types to the legs and more then once.

Kicking within the extended punch.

Now back to this other kick Iha sensei spoke of in the article Victor supplied.

Take this test and you decide:

1 - fully extend an arm ( try it with either the left then the right arm )

2 - lift a leg into chamber ( try both legs )

3 - now kick with full intent making certain you foot does not pass the extended arm

I did this yesterday to test what Iha sensei said was the proper way to kick. First, the length of my thigh ( upper leg ) is almost as long as the extended arm to begin with leaving me with only a few inches of forward movement. By the time my lower leg hinges forward, I am past the extended arm. The only way in God's world I can stay within the distance of my arm is to kick short and choke the kick. No matter how I tried it reduced the power of the kick immensely. I tried pulling my hips back to gain some more distance, but that helped very little. I can use a rising kick to the groin, but that went way past the arm.

I didn't stop here. I went to several video's of Harrill sensei and others doing kata. In every case they kicked past the extended arm. Now I am doubting myself thinking I missed the class on kicking 101. But I realize I didn't and contrary to Iha stating people would can't do this don't understand the proper way to kick, I do understand.

Being I liked most of what Iha said and agree with him, I will conduct more experiments with my students on the subject of kicking.

Additionally, in July I will take this subject to Kyoshi Marquez, a fine Goju ryu and Kobudo teacher.John and Lee we have to go over this at next meet.

Darn Victor, look what you started. If I didn't like it so much, I wouldn't be posting. Rich

Try pulling you knee higher than you are used to. That's how I learned it.

~Lee

Hi Rich,

I’ve been thinking about this kicking concept for some time “In the "old days," the kick was never extended past the extended punch”.

First I think we must consider that the use of language (and of course translation) may not fully describe what is being done.

I can see this several different ways:

1. Delivering the kick as if you in distance to strike a wall, and instead using the kick.

i. Targeting the lower abdomen.

ii. Targeting the groin/legs

2. Delivering a kick with the same body alignment as if you were striking, and not shifting the hip into the strike. In that case your kick might hinge further than the fist.

3. Targeting a space one arm length from the body that the opponent will be moving into as your kick is delivered. That is not the same as kicking a static distance, but one where the opponent is moving into the space you have taken.

I see each as having a different launch mechanism in practice.

I tried doing a search but didn’t locate any video of IHA SEIKICHI SENSEI to watch.

I did locate some video of his contemporary, Miyahira Katsuya, but nothing that makes a case either way.

When I watch Shimabuku Sensei’s kicking technique in the 1966 Seisan kata versions, I see his marvelous chamber, and kicks that appear to strike to the groin or the legs. In that case I see striking the distance a fist can strike, reasonable. You can watch them yourself and make your own decision.

And that may well tie into Harrill Sensei’s Brush Kick. [And perhaps the cutting kick of the Kashiba Juku folks.

I’m not sure any explanations of a systems kicking technique can fully describe what they may do.

At one time or another I’ve been trained in kicking from several different Isshinryu traditions, Korean Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, several different Chinese traditions (N. Shaolin and Tam Tuie) as well as Indonesian ones. They each have their time and place, execution theories and strategy.

I firmly believe in my Isshinryu core and teach it as I was taught, but even in that there is flex. I was taught that one’s kicking potential was taken as far as they could go, and in turn use my other studies as appropriate for student growth.

IMO, the only lower body chart I’ve studied for the past 35 years is mostly focused on striking into the lower body of the opponent.

Lower Body Combinations

1. Front Snap Kick

2. Knee Strike (45degrees)

3. Front Kick (Side)

4. Cross Kick

5. Side Snap Kick

6. Heel Strike (Knee)

7. Knee Strike

8. Rear Kick

9. Side Kick (45 degrees rear)

10. Squat Kick

11. Side Kick (on Floor)

12. Front Thrust (from floor)

13. Double Jump Kick

14. Roundhouse Kick

15. Side Kick (Rear 45 degrees), Rear Kick

Victor

~Lee

Hi Rich,

Last night my group too was working on kicking in the striking range.

Working on the standing bag we found it was exactly as John described,
a rising kick into the lower abdomen range.

Opening a fascinating line of kicking investigation. Victor

In a message dated 6/4/2008 4:21:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, isshim2@... writes:

Working on the standing bag we found it was exactly as John described,

a rising kick into the lower abdomen range.

Victor,

Every kick a purpose. I am well aware of a rising kick and of course I teach it. Iha, in his interview, led me to believe a person not kicking within his extended arm does not understand kicking. To that I say nonsense. A rising kick has it's purpose, but it is not, in my opinion, our primary front snap kick. Gedan uke ( lower block ) travels downward, a rising kick upward. I believe a rising kick is easier to block being it travels toward the block. I think it's harder to block a snapping kick which hinges and remains parrellel to the ground. I still like all kicks and that's not the point. I understood Iha to mean all mae geri stay within the extended arm. I just don't see this being true.

Draw a straight line down either your left or right side. One from the center of the arm socket to the center of the hip. Now extend your arm and measure from that line to the end of your fist. Do the same with the leg. I guarantee the leg is longer then the arm. Therefore, you must choke the kick or make it rise and choke it to stop it at the end of that arm.

Lee suggested bring the knee up more. If I pick my knee up more, then the rising kick can go higher. But I still, according to Iha, can't past the extended arm. I have seen a great deal of people kick and for sure they are passing the extended arm. I am referring to Isshin ryu people, including myself. Yet they snap and pop the kicks. The kicks are fast, smooth and very effective.

Your going to tell me Harrill sensei's kicks didn't pass his extended arm? Then I must have his double on video's doing kata and kicking wrong according to Iha.

I am waiting for Iha to write me back. Then I will clarify what he wrote in his interview. This made me stop and think which is a very good thing.

Rich

Hi Rich,

I agree it is fascinating topic and look forward to any response you get from Iha Sensei. I do belive the concept is open to a number of different meanings depending on definition.

If I had been a student of Harrill Sensei I would practice exactly as trained. Having been a student of others I follow those paths, but am always willing to learn and try.

The immediate result of this will not change my basic teaching approach, but it may have an impact on advanced kicking studies.

Of course it's not necessary one has the strongest kick (or technique) or the fastest kick (or technique) but simply that one has the right speed and power to place the kick (technique) into the right space and time so it has an effect on the attacker. Not a suggestion how to train but a comment on the use of strategy and tactics. The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself, of course.

Victor

Rich and Victor,

Sensei first showed me this kick in the summer of 1992, After he showed this to me he said," Now young man, don't let this change the way I taught you to kick in Kata." The two places he told me to think of this was the back fist front kick combo in Kusanku, and the last kick in Seisan Kata.

Als when Sensei would apply this, a trapping seizing type of technique was used prior to the kick

Think of it this way, how many different types of handstrikes did you see him employ? Those many ways of striking though never changed the way he ran his Kata.

John

Shugoro Nakazato Sensei performing the Kusanku Dai kata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znNZKMaBVDg