I want to show you a conversation on an older YahooGroups discussion group called the CyberDojo, this conversation was from 2005. I joined the internet around 1999 and discovered many times many in-depth discussions on the martial arts, deeper discussion than anywhere today. I save many of those discussion as Hard Copy printouts and still have them in binders today, and many times they were awesome with knowledgeable contributors from around the world. This is but one from around the time when I began saving those discussions on CDs.
Enjoy the depth.
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Hi Dan Smith (Seibukan),
Sorry for the delay in responding...I've been terribly busy since returning from overseas, in fact, this response come to you from chilly New Zealand. BTW, the rather lengthy replies result from not having much time to visit the CD. Anyway, I do thank you for your response and the kind wishes for Father's Day, too. We enjoyed a nice weekend on the Gold Coast. Nice to get away for a change with the family.
I do remember the enjoyable, and sometimes heated, dialogue here on the CD back in when I first met you '97. I enjoyed that kind of challenging dialogue and am still up for it pretty much any time. It's the sour grapes, personal attacks, jaded language and dirty laundry that tend to destroy the ambience for meaningful dialogue.
I know you're not such a person and I respect you for that. BTW, I do respect your POV, I simply don't share it, at least not the particular POV I previously addressed. I don't see anything wrong with that and I can't even imagine what it would be like if we all agreed on every issue. I am certain there must be other areas where our opinions more closely converge. That "The Okinawans are happy with their karate," is something I have little interest in arguing...I am sure some are, I'd bet some aren't and who knows how many are still searching for answers? I certainly know a few in each category, as probably do you, but I doubt either of us could provide a definitive answer and feel fairly confident in saying that no one's got all the answers.... Okinawan or Occidental. Anyway, I think we've both established our POV here.
As we were discussing POV's, let me say that in my own case, it was *I* who grew unhappy with rule-bound karate [Japanese and Okinawan] practices, and "for me", that's all *I* was concerned with. By 1985 I'd been studying martial arts for 17 years, and had experienced enough dissatisfaction with, what can only be described as ridiculous and preposterous, kata application practices, hence, I finally decided to do something about it. I won't bore you with the details...except to say; I found what "I" was looking for by searching elsewhere.
Addressing a few other issues...
Language/Culture:
I do think it's a great idea to delve deeper into the old native culture as, in doing so, one is liable to pick up a morsel or two relating to old-school training. BTW, most foreigners I knew in Okinawa got along quite well with just a little bit of Japanese and plain old English. Personally, I never met anyone in Okinawa who imparted karate in fully conversant Uchinaguchi.... it's just not done, although, there always seems to be a local word here, or native term there [i.e. chinkuchi, kakushite, muchimi-di, etc.] that tends to defy a simple Japanese translation and becomes the subject of intense confusion and conversation...hence, the interest in Hogen.
Anyone who's ever been to the island knows that food, lodging and shopping is accomplished with just a little patience and some effort. The more Japanese one speaks the easier things become. Okinawa is one of Japan's 47 prefectures, so too is its language, education, money, etc. is Japanese. Training at an Okinawan dojo is usually not overly difficult, as there always seems to be someone who can speak some English. Even if there's not an English speaker at the dojo, in most cases one's enthusiasm for learning/training, the contextual settings/lesson, sensei's physical gestures and warm personality [there's almost no Japanese militaristic-like training, except in the
high school & university karatebu] usually work just fine.
From around 1991/92, citing a 600-year anniversary liaison with the Middle Kingdom [and a 20-year independence from America control] there was a shitload of government, local and international money funneled into Okinawa to spruce up its overall image [some say for the tourism industry??]. The old and dilapidated castle in Shuri was refurbished to [actually beyond] its original splendour, the first Uchinanchu Festival was held attracting thousands [and a few wealthy investors, too] from all over the world, and no cost was spared to rekindle its old culture, customs and language, if only for that year. I remember very clearly that hardly a week passed without some kind of special documentary on Okinawa or the Ryukyu archipelago being aired on NHK TV. Then, in December of 1992, the NHK hosted Prof. Chin Shushin to provide two separate televised lectures on Okinawa history [which he did] and later in January, he spoke again, at the at the Okinawan Convention Centre [in Ginowan], with a distinguished panel of anthropologists, historians and experts on the Ryukyu Kingdom, which included, Prof. Mori Kochi, Takara Kuraiyoshi, Yamanoki Tetsuo, Prof. Tanaka Yuko, and Prof. Hamashita Takeshi. For a researcher like me residing in Japan at that time, this was hugely educational. There was also a fascinating 42-part TV series also produced by NHK, entitled, "Ryukyu no Kaze" [roughly..."The Winds of Ryukyu"] which focused on the culture and daily [political/social] life during the mid-Ryukyu Kingdom Period. That project alone witnessed the construction of an entire 17th century village built from the ground up with every brick, window, door and street being an exact replica of life during the old Kingdom Period. Called the Ryukyu Studio, it still stands there today, open to the general public. I also understand that Uchinaguchi language is once again being taught in the school system, however, as some local Okinawan kids have told me, it's not always their favourite subject; hmm, kind of reminds me of French as a subject back during my school days in Canada!
Timing:
In street fighting [or perhaps I should say "in successfully defending oneself against an unwarranted act of aggression," on the street, in a pub, night club, on a bus, etc...I could care less about tournaments] "timing represents one's ability to move [evasively/ offensively] effectively at the right moment and continue moving until the outcome is achieved. Style, as far as I am concerned, means absolutely nothing...it's what's happening at the other end that dictates one's attention and subsequent response.
You've best be *prepared * is the key word here, to react or take it to 'em when all hell breaks loose.... That's what I think timing is. To say that Shorin Ryu favors this timing, Goju Ryu favors that timing, or ACME Ryu favors something else means absolutely nothing to me. I've observed, and or fought against all kinds of styles for many years and wondered, seeing that there are such different and wonderful styles, why does everyone fight pretty much the same? What happens to *styles* in the heat of it? That's what I'm talking about and that's what I believe our tradition represents.
HAPV:
Just what are the myriad mnemonic techniques used for in kata if not prescribed responses to identifiable HAPV? In spite of the *all- knowing* POS mumbling some Schopenhauer-based comment that HAPV "are self-evident" and have been systematically taught for years by instructor's like Tero Chinen, and *others*, I know of no Okinawan karate *style*, classical or modern, that comes anywhere close to such a thing. If you know of a pre-1990 curriculum that identifies the collective HAPV outlined in KU and systematically imparts its prescribed responses, linking them back to the ancestral-based kata from which they come, may I ask you to please cite it?
Oral Tradition:
The Okinawans, like the Chinese, pay great respect to the past, to those who came before them, and to their ancestors, too. This is the Confucian-based portion of their spiritual heritage. In the same way that oral tradition evolved from an oppressed culture, recounting the history of karate is, in many ways to Okinawans, a way of venerating the tradition, linking the past to the present, and paying homage to those most responsible for handing it down. However, I've read enough Brian Victoria, Ruth Benedict, Karel van Wolferen, George Kerr, Edwin Reischauer, and Joe Campbell, to know that much of karate's so-called oral tradition is steeped myth, and mysticism and is, at best, undependable, and, at worst, self-serving. Perhaps, somewhere in between there exists truth. One thing that is absolutely certain is that no definitive explanation exists anywhere as to the exact evolution of this tradition. Hence, we are all entitled to make our
own deductions...I have mine, you have yours.
My Thing:
While it may be true that I am rather adamant about the defensive application issue of kata, especially in lieu of the preposterous practices being pawned off as functional, your observation about "my thing" merely tells me that you're not completely aware of what my deductions fully represent. The HAPV-based prescribed defensive responses explaining kata are but one part of a larger curriculum. Dan isn't all karate an effective way to condition the body, cultivate the mind & nurture the spirit. Through diligent training can't all karate participants [if and when, of course, they're training properly] improve health, its holistic purpose; be better prepared to protect oneself, its defensive application; build moral character, its social aim; discover and overcome the source human weakness; its philosophical nature, and finally, to know inner peace, its spiritual essence? Karate, if nothing else, should reminds each of us of our own humanity, the importance of improving the quality of daily life and our responsibility to contribute to the welfare of society. Supporting every facet of this practice is a message far greater than the physical conduit through which it is delivered. Am I wrong to assume that you, and probably most every other teacher on this list, are not dedicated to honoring these traditional values and sharing this timeless message with a generation of more progressive Western learner seeking to better understand the Okinawan/Japanese art of karate? If this is not what you, and everyone else on this list is doing, then I am doing "my own thing."
Like you, I too sincerely hope that karate one day will reflect more of its true Okinawan [and Fujian] heritage, however, I am not going to hold my breath waiting. With a strong background in southern Chinese martial arts, I've long embraced their family-based structure but simply prefer the Japanese/Zen-based cultural landscape, and the more relaxed Okinawan mindset. Leaning heavily on critical thinking as an effective agent to resolve ambiguity and maintain a sense of reality, I have found a happy balance between the three different schools of thought.
Ubiquitous Spontaneity:
I found your comment about the purpose of the kata "being a means of developing a ubiquitous spontaneity for the purpose of not allowing an attacker a continuous movement and allowing you to effectively cause the attacker to stop the attack," a little less than explanatory. Okay, I'll bite…how does one accomplish this? I am sure that kata by itself [even if one cannot comprehend the prescribed applications set forth, or even identify the HAPV] would be better than knowing absolutely nothing in defense of one's life.... and that only goes to assuming the participant has achieved physical prowess, is tenacious, and possesses a measure of common sense/perception.
Kata, by itself [meaning the solo practice of] does not prepare learners to adequately deal with self-defense (period). If Seibukan Shorin Ryu (or any other style represented here on the CD) claims to accomplish this defensive outcome teaching kata [as a solo routine]
would someone please share that with me? Thanks.
Patrick
6. I do not understand what you mean by the mixed delivery systems of striking, kicking, etc. Can you expand?
Sure…the general delivery system used in modern karate which links all styles together is based on 5 techniques; in no specific order they are...
1. Fore fist impacting
2. Receiving [incorrectly described as "blocking")
3. Posturing [mobility, positioning, delivery support structure]
4. Kicking and leg-related maneuvering
4. Associated methods of striking [elbow, knee, head-butt, fingers, etc.]
Dan Smith:
Hosting Patrick:
Dan, please forgive my earlier comment about you hosting me...I am sure I simply misunderstood. Honestly, and with all due respect to you Dan, and to Seibukan Shorin Ryu, I did not come to your dojo to "exchange" information. I don't mean to sound above it or anything of the kind, but I simply had/have no interest in your style. I certainly don't say this to diminish, discredit or criticize your style, its history, heritage or the legacy of Kyan/Shimabuku, as it certainly speaks for itself, but only to make perfectly clear my position; I travel throughout the western world all year long as a professional seminar teacher on business…not pleasure. This is what I do. Having corresponded with you and believing that you were genuinely searching for more penetrating knowledge about the application process of kata, I happily accepted your invitation. While I am certainly no expert in Seibukan Shorin Ryu, I had, long ago, conducted enough investigation into its history, lineage, kata and curriculum [it's all pretty much public knowledge Dan] to understand what makes the style function, what its strengths and its weaknesses are. Like you said, you have your style, and I have mine.... if I thought that Seibukan Shorin Ryu had what I was looking for, I would be dedicating my efforts accordingly. As it stands, I am not. Having been personally invited to Atlanta from Lexington, with my return airfare paid, being a guest at your beautiful home, enjoying your warm & wonderful Southern hospitality [it was very memorable/enjoyable], having dined me, and finally coming on the dojo floor with me in your gi to train [you say exchange training...okay, sorry, I didn't realize that was what we were doing], I thought I was being hosted. I now see that this is/was not your recollection, so I offer my apology.
For the other gentleman who questioned the value of historical studies; I believe that studying the history of our tradition [irrespective of political differences] provide fascinating insights into its origins, language and those cultural forces which have influenced its evolution. The cultural ambiguity that tends to shroud understanding otherwise simple historical & tactical issues can, in many cases, be resolved through this kind of investigation. BTW, it can also be fun, and the participant is almost always brought into contact with something new, which in some cases can bring more meaning to other facets this art. I myself discovered four different combative-like practices once actively practiced in Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom through such investigation; Tegumi (wrestling/grappling) Torite [as Itosu described it] (seizing and controlling), Siamese-style boxing (Ti), and Kata (hsing/human movement).
IMO, we can only ever know what we are looking for if and when we are mentored in such a manner as to make functional deductions based on understandable logic. I don't really know you Paris, but I am not one to support ambiguous training methods…I am sure you're probably not, either. When core principles clearly definable and linked directly to functional outcomes, I am on the same page as you are.
On different paths in the same vineyard...
Have a great weekend!
Patrick McCarthy
Dan;
How's things?
This is an interesting interchange. I feel that I know both of you
equally well, having studied with one for a very brief time and
reading your posts over the years on the CD and Sabaki. I have gained more insight from your first-person commentary than anything else I have read or heard. It's refreshing that what you have to say does not carry the tone of a resume and that you do not start every third sentence with 'I'.
I cannot add to the discussion that the two of you are engaged in but would like to offer up some thoughts and questions.
HAPV:
I had questioned the origin and make up of this theory once
before. A CD member offered up that they were passed down through time and cataloged from observation. I have also understood from a similar source that they were the product of 'religious recluse'. To date I have still not understood if they came with the 36 HAPV intact or were collected and entitled that. I have not seen any evidence that these 36 HAPV or a like list had anything to do with the applications to kata in Okinawa. Granted that Mr. McCarthy used them as a platform for the launching KU but the items on the list were taught in relationship to kata prior to 1990. According to Mr. McCarthy the 'pioneers, used HAPV as a basis for the defensive themes in kata. The other matter was that there are listed 36 HAPV with at least 72 variations. The 36 HAPV are going to generate a finite sum of variations, so what are not the variations set out in the exact sum for study instead of being associated with one of the mystical numbers in karate; ie 18,24,36,54,72,108?
I must have a different definition for Schopenhauer. I do not see
that asking a question falls into that billet. Schopenhauer did claim that some of his writing was done by the 'Holy Ghost'.
KU:
To profess that Koryu Uchinadi is a complete system of study is a
mistake. It is a collection of 6 waza, 6 two person drills and 6 ryu
specific kata. What is referred as their Nyumon curriculum. It lacks a foundation for a newby student, it has no criteria for testing in the kyu or dan grading and not all of it is ryu specific. It is a decent start but has remained unfinished for years. The warmup exercises that are termed "Shaolin" in nature can be found in Nakayama's Dynamic Karate. KU does set forth a good theory for kata application, which should be given the attention it deserves.
I would suggest, however, the Mr. McCarthy is not alone in his quest, as folks like Iain Abernaethy, Kris Wilder, Rick Clark, Vince Morris and Marc MacYoung have been traveling that same path. And there were acts of aggression taught for kata other than kick/punch taught prior to 1990. Nakayama/Dreager Practical Karate series was first published in 1963. Nagamine's Okinawan Karatedo published in 1976. Wally Jay's Small Circle published 1989. Higaonna's Traditional Karatedo published 1990. Mattson's Uechiryu Karate do published 1974. Ochiai's Book of Self-defense published 1991. Kubotas' Art of Karate published 1977. There are many contemporary published works that also use those items listed in the 36 HAPV. 1990 is just not what we can intelligently use as a date for whence this theory was put into practice.
Ubiquitous Spontaneity:
I agree that the key to this, is the two-person exercise. Be it Ippon, Sanbon or Gobon kumite, a renzoku exercise or a linear application, they all serve that 'auto pilot' function that needs to kick in during the time of stress or panic. Two person exercises did not suddenly appear in 1990 either.
Historical Study:
Can't know where you are going until you know where you have been. Researcher do have a systematic process that they must adhere to, otherwise it's just another story told by just another guy and ultimately that is the weight that it holds. If you are going to step in those shoes, you are going to have to walk in them. The end result of study is not the products that were gain, it's the journey to get there and like Mr. McCarthy states the stuff you learn on the way that you did not plan to.
Michael Taylor
Northwest Koryukan
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