Hey Rich,
At 12:29 PM 3/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: Now we are talking about a standard shoulder high block as taught in the Isshin ryu basic's, am I right? Right.
> Now Lenny, you've been on the receiving end of my blocks and have trained in my dojo. We also come from the same stable. I have to say that if you cannot make the block work, then you are most certainly doing it wrong. Sensei Harrill is the person who taught me how to get this block to work properly.
Yeah, but you also outweigh me by 50 #'s, and if we were to stand toe to toe, you could more than likely punch thru my block whether I did it correctly, incorrectly or if I were lucky. The point is there is no way I can out strength you. You know that usually during kumite, the most effective block is just an open hand deflection, slap block, or redirection, whatever you choose to call it. I think I said to John or Steve that Harrill Sensei's block worked all the time because it was based on structure rather than on strength.
> The block doesn't fight the punch, it redirects it. But I do admit, most have trouble when doing it wrong. I guess one can say that's with anything in life.
It's more than just redirecting it. His block moved in a forward / backward plane rather than a left / right plane. The arm went out to meet the incoming punch and then sucked it past you as it redirected. He was also postured properly and he was smooth about it. That is "structure." There is no strength required when you do it that way, and with a little practice, it works very predictably. It also gives the puncher the feeling that his elbow is almost hyperextending.
I hope we're talking about the same thing. :-) : Len
I'd like to offer another perspective on chudan uke. Looking at the movement, it has two beats to it. The hand moves in towards my center (think of the opening of Seisan with the hand stack; that is the first beat, the movement towards my hip), then back out for what is usually termed the "blocking" motion (the ending opening posture of Seisan, chudan uke). I believe it wise to train assuming an attacker will hit me on the first beat of a fight. This means chudan uke is too slow to catch a punch if being used as a block. It is not something I would use on the street if I thought this is what it were for.
However.... if we hit the arm on the first beat, this is a strong movement (adduction - movement towards my centerline) and I would be catching the attack on the first beat. So I have a chance of using it realistically. After hitting the arm with the first beat (inward movement), I can use the second beat (the "blocking" portion) to smack my attacker in the head. After all, hitting the arm with some intent will cause the attacker's knees to bend and head to come forward. This is an efficient use of the movement, as something is accomplished with the first and second beat. It is using my mechanical strength, so I have a chance of it working on a larger attacker. And after the hit of the arm, I can use that back hand to grab the wrist and keep it locked to my hip as I hit the attacker in the head. So I have a reason for the hand at the hip in the usual chudan uke posture. This is something I would use on the street.
Thanks, Matt
Steve Jamison wrote: Len-san posts the following . . .
> I never saw anyone whether in a real fight or even playing kumite use the standard chudan soto uke to block a punch.
Len's horrifying use of the English language notwithstanding, it is indeed very difficult to use that "block" to deal with that particular attack.
Len-san continues with his sentence structure and spelling lesson:
> Like you said, unless you cooperate, if you really mean it, you will probably be able to punch thru a standard block.
I have spent an enormous amount of time practicing this "block" and plenty of time trying to make it work with a person standing in front of me. In an uncontrolled situation where my attacker is going to follow through with full power, it is very difficult to **use the outside of the forearm** in a *standard* kind of block. The time delay between when the punch is recognized, the fact that the punch travels in a straight line, the fact that the "block" travels two or more times further to effect the block (if you do the "basic" motion,) all conspire to cause you to get plastered or at best wind up in a tie. The only way to really make it work consistently is to buy yourself some time with some footwork and even then a palm open check
is really required.
Kerker-sensei writes: > Shows me that you must not have paid attention to his most precious message. Basics, Basics, and more basics.
I've watched a fifth-dan and a third-dan play with this and even *knowing* which fist is coming sometimes they were clashing or flat out missing the "block" more often than not. If these guys couldn't make it look good, it needs to be re-thought or re-prioritized. I have a passing familiarity with the basics as taught by your Sensei. While the outside forearm chudan block was in the mix, so were six other uses for this "block" motion that made good sense and in many cases can't help but work.
Now I keep using quotes around "block." The motion of the basic chudan "blocking" motion is the tool of a thousand uses. I can use that motion for *many* other things, with a far greater success rate, than I can as a chudan outside forearm block. In order for a technique to be valid, it must work if the 110 lb. female is trying not to get knocked out cold and stuffed in the trunk of a car. Anything less is irresponsible.
"It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose . . . " SJJ
steve jamison
Hello John,
At 08:48 PM 3/7/2005 -0500, you wrote: > Although you didn't train with him very often you always seem to bring up Mr Harrill's name.
That's because he had a good way about him. Despite the fact that I had only been to a and he made an impression on me.
> To say that you, "never saw anyone use the standard Isshinryu blocks, whether in a real fight or play kumite", Shows me that you must not have paid attention to his most precious message. Basics, Basics, and more basics.
Actually, what impressed me most was that one time he said that it was his job as a teacher to have everyone present at the seminar be able to do what he was teaching regardless of their size, etc. I took "basics, basics basics" to mean fundamentals. He, too would say to concentrate on the principles. Also, the way he taught the 6th basic, as described by Stever Jamieson, was based on "structure" not strength. That's why anyone who learned it from him could make it work.
> Mr. Harrill's other pet peeve was that people were always trying to add things to Isshinryu that were from outside the system. His exact words were, "
> Don't try to fix something that isn't broken. Isshin ryu as taught and practiced by Shimabuku Sensei is far from broken, so leave it alone."
I don't how Shimabuku taught it; I only know how I was taught it. I could never get it to work in a "real situation" until I learned it from him at a seminar. The way he put it just rang a bell. On the other hand, not everybody can do it as Shimabuku taught and practiced it, so sometimes you need to give people a different path up the mountain. The "my way of the highway" method of teaching karate does not hold much water in my book. It's the superior teacher who can teach a technique to have anyone be able to make it work.
I see Rich and Steve have jumped into the discussion, and I'm too lazy to type everything a million times, so I'll continue there, :-)
Thanx for the note, Len
Hey Steve,
> Len's horrifying use of the English language notwithstanding, “That's because I'm an idiot, remember? ROFL” >it is indeed very difficult to use that "block" to deal with that particular attack. I have spent an enormous amount of time practicing this "block" and plenty of time trying to make it work with a person standing in front of me. In an uncontrolled situation where my attacker is going to follow through with
> full power, it is very difficult to **use the outside of the forearm** in a *standard* kind of block. The time delay between when the punch is recognized, the fact that the punch travels in a straight line, the fact > that the "block" travels two or more times further to effect the block (if you do the "basic" motion,) all conspire to cause you to get plastered or at best wind up in a tie.
Thank you for a very nice explanation of the same problem I have with it. You command the language goodly. :-)
Note to John Kerker: This is indeed the block to which I was referring.
> The only way to really make it work consistently is to buy yourself some time with some footwork and even then a palm open check is really required. Usually with the rear hand, I found.
> Now I keep using quotes around "block." The motion of the basic chudan "blocking" motion is the tool of a thousand uses. I can use that motion for *many* other things, with a far greater success rate, than I can as a chudan outside forearm block. In order for a technique to be valid, it must work if the 110 lb. female is trying not to get knocked out cold and stuffed in the trunk of a car. Anything less is irresponsible.
This is the problem that you see in dojo all over the place (not necessarily Isshin dojo for all your paranoid types out there :-) ). I've seen it in Goju and Shotokan dojo also. Students are irresponsibly led to believe they can just stand there and slug it out toe to toe with someone 60# heavier and 6 inches taller than they are.
Like Rich K posted, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."
Len
In a message dated 3/8/2005 9:24:30 PM Central Standard Time,writes: to call it. I think I said to John or Steve that Harrill Sensei's block worked all the time because it was based on structure rather than on strength. One thing Mr Harrill always said was that," A good technique requires no strength."
Now this "Structure" word seems to be the new buzz word in martial arts these days. I've heard a lot of people describe "Structure" in different ways. Sensei never used this term in the Dojo. He just called it good basics.
John
In a message dated 3/8/2005 9:24:30 PM Central Standard Time, writes: It's more than just redirecting it. His block moved in a forward / backward plane rather than a left / right plane. The arm went out to meet the incoming punch and then sucked it past you as it redirected. He was also postured properly, and he was smooth about it. That is "structure." There is no strength required when you do it that way, and with a little practice, it works very predictably. It also gives the puncher the feeling that his elbow is almost hyper-extending.
I hope we're talking about the same thing. :-) :Len
I had this sensation many a times, It was more like being pulled into a trap. But like wise Mr. Harrill would put a little focus in the same motion and knock you senseless.
Mr. Harrill had great command of the Isshinryu basics and was able to make most things he did seem effortless.
John
Blocks work fine, depending on how you address them.
The beginning outside moving side block is great if you're shifting appropriately as the attacking limb is coming towards you. This can be by stepping body shifting, or by appropriate use of the knee release to do the same thing without stepping (faster too).
If you're meeting it heads on with the side block the attacking punch is often faster and you might get nailed, but that's a great training tool to improve your response time, don't overlook that usage. Just make the student understand the difference TRAINING is NOT Application.
Then more specifically Harrill Sensei's sucking block is great too. A different flavor of the same.
Course slamming the fist from the beginning motion into their shoulder joint, or into their biceps using the vertical knuckles as a sap, works fine too.
Layers of attention. Layers of possibility. Layers of training to learn how to improvise on the theme.
Seems what this should be about. Victor Smith bushi no te Isshinryu
In a message dated 3/9/2005 12:13:41 AM Eastern Standard Time writes:
Looking at the movement, it has two beats to it. The hand moves in towards my center (think of the opening of Seisan with the hand stack; that is the first beat
Hi Matt,
In the opening move in Seisan the hand should not be stacked on the hip. If you do this your not using economy of motion and if you do it this way, you will most certainly get tagged with the punch. Look, everything is relevant. That said, if a person is far enough from me when they punch, I have time to waste. If a person is in close quarters, this is how Isshin ryu engages, then you can waste time. Yes the arm comes across the body, covering or sweeping center mass, but does not get stacked on the hip first.
Thanks Matt, Rich
In a message dated 3/8/2005 10:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes:
Yeah, but you also outweigh me by 50 #'s, and if we were to stand toe to toe, you could more than likely punch thru my block whether I did it correctly, incorrectly or if I were lucky This statement reminds me of what Mr. Kordell said to me at his home years ago. He said, that this drill I was doing worked on Alan S. because I was stronger or outweighed Alan (Len's better looking brother). Shortly afterwards I proved him wrong, we had to make a short visit to ER. Jeeze I'm sorry for that Rich, really, I am and how have you been?
However, Len, you then contradicted yourself somewhat in your reply. Wait let me paste it...you wrote: That is "structure." There is no strength required.
Yes Lenny, now you're getting it. No strength when done correctly. Now somewhere else you said. that's not how I was taught. But Len, I did show you how I do it, I know I did. Sensei Harrill, as Mr. Kerker stated, kind of sucked the punch in. I said redirected it. Same thing.
I said you have to be doing it wrong, you wrote and with a little practice, it works very predictably. It also gives the puncher the feeling that his elbow is almost hyper-extending.
Now, I remember how we, yes you and I, were taught the middle block. I also know that since the late 80's and meeting Advincula sensei, I changed how I do the middle block, I know that since 1990 after meeting Harrill sensei, I again added his way to the middle block. Both of these sensei's blocks work well.
Both trained under Tatsuo in Isshinryu.
I now have the best of both worlds with them on my side. I also teach this and you know this to be true. I have tried to show you but you may have missed that class or kept trying to do it the Kishaba way. I don't know how you do it today, but to say Isshinryu's middle block doesn't work, would not be telling it as it really is.
So, when one can't get something to work within their perspective ryuha, they need to ask their sensei. If that's not possible, then they need to train with someone until they make it work. Running to another style is not and never was the answer, because chances are history will repeat itself. Not pointing the finger at Lenny or anyone in particular, only giving examples and experience. Thanks in advice, Rich
Hello John,
I know nothing about "buzz" words... martial or otherwise. However, structure is a term that's been around an awfully long time. IYE... IYV does the term structure refer to something other than the skeletal structure... by that meaning "structure" is identified specifically (and particularly) as the bones and the muscles which make those bones specifically function? Just checking... Jeff
Mr. Ruberto writes of the chudan uke: > No strength when done correctly. and he referred to Len's post saying:
> Now somewhere else you said. that's not how I was taught. But Len, I did show you how I do it, I know I did. Sensei Harrill, as Mr. Kerker stated, kind of sucked the punch in. I said redirected it. Same thing.
I will have to go with Len on this one. At least that is not how I was taught the chudan "block," and Harrill-sensei's use of the motion is altered from the way I see 98% of the Isshin-ryu world doing and teaching the "block." Advincula-sensei's block is more circular and used exactly the way it appears. Harrill-sensei's motion goes more directly out to meet or more literally, to create a wedge to redirect and *then* draws the attacker back in.
> I said you have to be doing it wrong, you wrote: and with a little practice, it works very predictably. It also gives the puncher the feeling that his elbow is almost hyper-extending.
I confess my training has included precious little practice in Harrill-sensei's manner of chudan "block." There still seems to be a critical timing aspect to this method that I haven't mastered in a non-prearranged situation. I can definitely see it working, but I need to alter my mindset. I tend to get lazy and check, preferring to use taisabaki/ashisabaki to move the target, or eat a small piece by slipping it to get position for the big gun. "Block 'em and clock 'em" if you will.
> Both of these sensei's blocks work well. Both trained under Tatsuo in Isshin ryu.
Harrill-sensei's chudan block looks nothing like any of the tapes of Shimabuku Tatsuo I've ever seen. In this sense I have to believe that Advincula-sensei is teaching exactly what he was taught by his teacher.
> So, when one can't get something to work within their perspective ryuha, they need to ask their sensei. If that's not possible, then they need to train with someone until they make it work.
It really should work all by itself, more often than not. If you need to *make* it work through careful timing, brute force, or luck then something is wrong. If the 110 lb female can't make it work against a fat-body like me something is wrong. If a san-dan and a go-dan look like a monkey f'ing a football trying to make it work something is wrong.
This is self-defense, not brain surgery. A hand is flying at your face at warp 9, the success rate should be near 100% in the dojo, because when your brain is 80 proof adrenaline you aren't going to be much for timing things up and your body motions are very much going to become more mechanical and thinking is way out of the question. (Note: I prepped this message two days ago, Advincula-sensei posted the same thing to the Isshinkai yesterday.)
Please don't think I'm dumping on all of Isshin-ryu. The chudan block has been my pet peeve since I was a seventh kyu and noticed *no one* ever does a chudan block when the situation becomes uncontrolled/non-prearranged. Does that motion have use? Many. I know I'll be crapped on for lack of practice, you are doing it wrong, you just suck, blah, blah, blah. Whatever.
Oh, and Joe Paden may follow Advincula-sensei unquestioningly, and Advincula-sensei may have reposted Len's post to the Isshinkai for comment, but neither is a capital offense. Lighten up Francis. Len is on the Isshinkai or at least he was a few days ago when I checked the member list and Advincula-sensei knew Len would see it. Len can fight his own battles, he doesn't need the moderator to use his power in his defense.
And, I am not one of Advincula-sensei's favorite people because of my critical eye toward subjects like the chudan block. I'm not in a popularity contest and I don't follow anyone blindly. I'm still in Isshin-ryu because it works and it is grounded in good basics.
I'm a little out of the loop and a couple days behind, forgive me if I'm covering old ground.
FWIW, SJJ
I think it was about 1997 when Harrill Sensei showed his way of using the side block to draw the opponent towards oneself. That was the clinic where Mr. Lewis visited with us too. His way of using that block was an eye opener.
But the interesting thing about that side block was how similar it was to stick blocking technique in the Bando Short Stick form I teach which I learnt back in 83. That form taught a moving block with the stick that is identical to Harrill Sensei's use of the side block.
But until Harrill Sensei did it, even though I knew it both in stick and empty hand versions of the Bando form, I didn't see the parallel within the Isshinryu usage.
One of the vivid memories I retain of Harrill Sensei was how he kept ringing out new variations of use in those old familiar Isshinryu techniques.
This is definately not a case of one art influencing the other, just a demonstration how there are similar answers in many places.
For those who've been members of my Pleasant List perhaps you've saved the .avi file of that form when I shared it last month. Review it and you'll find two clear examples in the stick form of the same blocking technique.
Pleasantly, Victor Smith bushi no te Isshinryu
In a message dated 3/11/2005 2:41:57 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
I will have to go with Len on this one. At least that is not how I was taught the chudan "block," and Harrill-sensei's use of the motion is altered from the way I see 98% of the Isshin-ryu world doing and teaching the "block." Advincula-sensei's block is more circular and used exactly the way it appears That's it Jamison, you hurt my most inner feelings by going with Lenny on this. You are wrong however in your observations. Most things Mr. Harrill demonstrated were difficult to see with the eye. He would have to slow it down a whole lot and break it down a whole lot, for most of us to learn it. On the surface it looked like any other correctly executed block. I don't believe he altered Tatsuo's block and I wouldn't call it a wedge either. It was circular in nature. But, when he broke it down it may have looked like a wedge, but I don't think it was. Bottom line, it worked.
Let me bring this back to where I believe it all started. If you wind up a block or use poor body mechanics, poor economy of motion, use the wrong technique at the wrong time, you will more than likely fail at blocking. Matt, correct me Matt if I'm wrong, said, two step block. Another guy said, stack at the hips, like in Seisan. Both of these blocks will usually fail. They take to long to execute, use poor economy of motion, and have no leverage. (body mechanics).
The point of my response was to bring out good qualities of a properly executed block. It shoudln't have gotten off track and become a comparison between Advincula, Harrill and Tatsuo. I used them only as a good point of reference. Thanks Steve,
Rich
Boy what a lot of good discussion here. I think the topic hasn't even been opened yet.
Now I don't know much, outside of doing Isshinryu for decades I haven't been around much Isshinryu to know what others are doing. What I have seen in the last decade or so was Harrill Sensei, and I think the discussion as been missing many important portions of the public sharings he made. But I didn't have much chance to be with him, maybe 40 or so hours. Rich knows much more of Sherman than I and of couse John Kerker is so intimate with Harrill Sensei's path I can't imagine what he's experienced. I only took a few notes.
But what I have seen confirms exactly what Rich said, Harrill Sensei's answers were often very subtle. My words would be that he explored the fractals of motion within the technique. [Fractals is a term I appropriated from some Bagua folks but it works for me.]
I do know Harrill Sensei did not have one answer how to use the side block effectively. I suspect he had uncountable ones, off of several main themes. Sherman always said the underlying principles were more important than the application. Course he also said if pressed he'd likely just hit the person.
I think it was my 5th or 6th clinic with Harrill Sensei before the sucking variation of the side block was shown/focused for me and my students. I'm sure he did it before, but we weren't looking or directed at some other aspect. And Harrill Sensei wasn't just talking about the Side Block, he was sharing all blocks could be done in a way they would draw the person closer to you as the motion deflected their strike, making them closer to hit.
But it is very wrong to think that is how he did the side block, for he had many other ways, each painfully effective, to use it.
And reading between the lines, Sherman strongly indicated that the use of the lower body every time was an important part of the answer, but outside of a word or two, rarely mentioned what he was doing. I strongly suspect that is part of the better answers.
If Steve is right that 98% of Isshinryu does not explore the blocking motion sucking power, why I'm sorry for them. Actually once I was shown it made great sense as I had been doing it in my stick technqiue for at least 15 years prior to that time. I believe it is a true fractal of the original blocking technique, just focusing on a subset of the motion.
As some know I've experienced a number of different instructors. One of them an Indonesian uses several concepts that help frame this block usage. In his arts at the advanced levels of training they exhibit no chambers at all, just explode into the final piece of a technique to sell it. That is part of the beauty of this Harrill Sensei adaption.
In part it shaves part of the blocking chambering motion away to get out there faster, and it is done with the full body, not just the arm (at least as I see it). You don't just put the arm out and pull it back, you release your knees and your body dropping pulls the arm back. There is how I explain a portion of the structural dynamics behind the movement.
But again I'm only concentrating on one of Harrill Sensei's pubically shared techinque applications. It is no better than the rest.
Now just because the classical motion is done straight forwards or backwards does not mean it should fail. I always like listening to students say, it only works for you because you're larger and more powerful (I a big, slow dude). Yep, then I'd throw back how Tris Sutrisno (1/2 of my size) or Ernie Rothrock (likewise smaller) could use me like a ping pong ball with the same technique.
It isn't size, that's just an excuse for not wanting to work to make it work. Everyone's size is larger than a striking arm if they use their full body in unison to apply a technique. Thats what the words effortless power means anyway.
If one piece of your motion or body are unaligned in execution power drops. Take the Augmented side block, I bet Rich can't get through Len's augmented side block with one punch, no matter how powerful. But it's not the arm pressing against the wrist that makes it work. If only the index finger touches the inner arm, the same power is evidenced, and if the body works correctly the other arm can be in chamber and it still works.
The big black belt instruction manual (I assume you all have your copy) is full of blank pages. There's nothing that says you can't apply the technique straight but at an angle from their attack. You can step to do it, or you can release your knees and center yourself across their attack and do it.
The normal problem on the straight line is they're exploding to you. If you adjust you can make it work. However its easier to accept it won't work and do something else.
I'm of the school of thought if you can't make it work you have to work, smarter, better and harder to learn how to do it.
You know the first time I met Sherman he impressed me with the way he used that side block to take us apart. His crossing hands were strikes, his chambering hands were slashes, his crossing hands tore up arms and opened locking movements, and so much more.
Well perhaps a closing word to Len. I once saw a strong, fast young Shorin black belt (probably late 20's) drive a punch towards Sherman while his arms were dangling at his sides. Before the punch landed, Sherman took his right arm and blasted it down as a strike across that guy's forearm, which immediately dropped down.
If Rich tries to strike you, give that a try, but let him think you're going to side block.
Who said you have to play fair,
Victor
No comments:
Post a Comment