It was around 2010 when I met Robert Orozco on the CyberDojo and we became internet friends. He was a Goju stylist, who spoke the original Okinawan language and Japanese. He was also Native American and lived in California. After that meeting we started long discussions on many martial matters. Unfortunately our discussions ceased when he developed medical issues. Those discussions were quite deep, many of them very personal.'
This was how we introduced ourselves to each other.
It seems to me this began when I started discussing a law in Mass. where it was illegal to kick someone with a shod foot. And a woman was charged with that law.
This posting contains a message by me and Robert's response to me and him responding to several other individuals. This occurred in the early 2005s, I believe.
Robert, A most complex and provoking post.
First, without doubt one of the greatest tragedies remains how the American Holocaust remains is unknown to most of America's people.
I can only understand your history to the extent I have experienced prejudice myself, not in your way, but each of us always remains in our own space. When we understand the shortcomings of those with such attitudes as adults we can move past them, but I'm afraid it is human nature, regardless of location on this world, that drives those situations.
I have and have had students and friends, each a US citizen but with Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian and Korean backgrounds and they too have similar stories to the ones you relate, both as youth and adults. Each story is a telling indictment how we continue to fail to understand our own culture and history.
When karate moved from it's intimate old style instruction, where everyone came from the same community allowing walking to train, where everyone knew everyone and a new student came in with their entire background well known, and probably a referral from the families network, only then did a concern about who you're teaching really arise. Thus a factor of change at work.
Current School Standards
None of my adult students are permitted by the Club to train without submitting to a background screening, following Boys and Girls Club standards. A reasonable request as they don't pay for instruction. I have not had an instance of anyone's background being in question. While not living in walking distance I do know my students and re-questioning them serves no purpose. The benefit for keeping to a very old style approach small training group.
As we don't do tournaments, testing or gasshuku, instead only study karate from a classical not traditional perspective I'm not sure more intense personal scrutiny is required. I realize you're making a point, but in turn so am I. My students know my standards, they're not just something hanging on the wall, and I gladly follow their path through life, not just karate, I know where they are as well as any can.
IMO it is the instructor's responsibility to know his students. But instructor is a multi-layered term, one size does not fit all.
Strange Laws
Frankly I have violated more than a few of those laws, but it's not a problem because I didn't do so in those locations.
In New Hampshire I have taught many classes outside in the evening, but to my best knowledge I have never harmed a firefly and if my punch grazed one I always went to it's defense and obtained appropriate medical treatment for said subject.
Interesting that law is for Keen, NH, the town where each Halloween they display thousands of pumpkins all lit for display. I wonder if they'd extend the firefly provision to cover lit pumpkins in the early evening?
The law for Foxboro Mass is a trap law. "No martial artist can be seen going through his moves while his shoelaces are untied." Because in Masssachusetts it is against the law to strike someone with a shod foot, and I have seen this law applied to fights. Obviously in Foxboro they were concerned the MA schools were using untied shoelaces as a faster way to remove your shoes to defend yourself, for Massachusetts law clearly means to use your feet you have to be come Billy Jack and they are trying to trip the MA schools up.
The obvious answer is to wear loafers which can come off quickly. Unfortunately I didn't study Uechi ryu and condition my toes for kicking, and their law interferes with my Tam Toy training (Chinese kicking with shoes) so I recommend if you're traveling in Mass. Wear loafers and socks with steel reinforced toes (not covered by current law).
And onto –Do
As an American who's instructors trained in Okinawa, I practice an Okinawan sourced karate system. I question if Okinawan karate was ever a Do or Jutsu, instead just being Japanese imports to describe the original Okinawan arts. I really just see karate as karate. In its origins there was no dojo, just training in whatever space your instructor had. The source trigger of change being Itosu's import of karate style training into the Okinawan schools (a traditional not a classic practice).
While some might consider implications of a religious nature, I see karate simply as a human study. At the same time Karate is very much comprised of the Physical, Mental and Spiritual layers of study, but not Spiritual as in religion. I see the Spirit as the human will to believe in their studies, not just to know the or to be able to do them.
Without the spirit one can practice technique for decades, and then shown an application, many times in great detail, and then trying to do something they know well, against a training attack, can't perform the technique and turn it into something else. Only when they believe it with their spirit does it manifest itself from application study to application reality.
The instructor helps guide toward balance and belief both in using a movement and living life.
Pleasantly,
victor smith
bushi no te isshinryu
derry, nh usa
Hello Victor,
I hope you are doing well and thank you for the response. I would like to apologize in advance for the length of this response. I found that a quick blurb will not adequately describe what I am trying to convey. Please note that the original version was much longer but cut this down quite a bit. I would also like to state that I am in no way attacking anyone here or any persons point of view. I am only conveying the things I have come to understand in my life. Please feel free to agree, disagree, or stay in the middle. (I am probably wrong and crazy for all I know)
I agree that the Native American issues are not seen by many. Much of this is due to the closed communities and culture of the Native Americans (at least it is for mine). Unfortunately, what is not told in schools books or classes or media is the continual breaking of treaties and agreements between the Nations and the American Government (Yes, this still occurs today) and this does mean that the US is breaking the laws that was set up between the N.A. Nations and the U.S. Federal Government.
I can tell you that the ID check is an inside joke between my tribal brothers. On the day this occurred in Arizona, I called one of my tribal brothers who lives in Phoenix and asked him if he could prove that he was a US citizen and here legally and if not get ready to get sent somewhere else, maybe Florida (Inside joke). We both laughed at this and his stated, "It is what it is".
There are a lot of "inner" jokes in the Native American culture especially in regards to "outsiders" that are trying to learn about the culture and it seems that there is always a bit of distrust to the outsiders. (Please note that even though this is not my view but it is a common view of the people from my tribe). I was once told a story about how an anthropologist came to study but the elders did not trust him since he did not take the time to learn anything about the tribe before he came. Because of this distrust they told him stories and anecdotes about the tribe that were not true and these stories were also said to be published as facts about the tribe.
At any rate, I will move on in fear of being labeled a militant gun carrying A.I.M. member.
I also practice a style of karate from Okinawa and my teacher is from Okinawa as well. I have had the same teacher since the mid 80's. This is the reason why I first learned Japanese and then ultimately the Okinawan Language. Too many people this does not seem necessary but for the way in which I was brought up this is the only way for me to understand what was actually being taught to me.
I found in the learning with my teacher that we had some common cultural understandings. One is the importance of oral traditions and the relaying of stories of elders. Another is the understanding of what it means to be a student of someone.
The student/teacher aspect of karate would be a great topic here since I see that many people seek or visit other teachers, perhaps even without permission from their teacher. When I went to a seminar in Canada, I asked my teacher if it was acceptable for me to go. My teacher said that it was not a problem and encouraged me to go. My teacher called the person leading seminar and informed him that I was coming. When I arrived and was introduced to him by his students, he stated that he received a call from my teacher. I spent the whole day with him and his students and was even invited to train in a closed session outside of the seminar.
These two things I mentioned above may have made it easier for me to understand what was being taught to me on the physical as well as social level. In the early 90's, I requested that the other students of my teacher here in the U.S. start learning Uchinaguchi (Okinawan Language) but I was laughed at stating that Japanese was fine.
My main point was that they were learning from the translator and not from our teacher. I realized this for myself when I learned Japanese and then later learned Uchinaguchi. The reason I stated Uchinaguchi is because I wanted to understand the stories that were told between him and his teacher that was in the Okinawan Language.
In regards to the "DO". It was once said, "speaking about Okinawa you speak about karate and in speaking about karate you speak about Okinawa". I can count the times that my teacher has used the term Karate-do on one hand. He generally uses just the term Karate when he is speaking. This may be another good topic in the "DO" differences between Japan and Okinawa especially since the "DO" was of recent import to Okinawa. (Here is an interesting tidbit: I have heard this from a few Okinawan people: "Karate is no longer on Okinawa". This statement is a bit thought provoking and I will leave this one for another discussion as well).
It is my understanding that what makes up a person makes up their karate. This can not be separated into convenient compartments for examination. The Mind/Body/Spirit aspect of karate is what we reason, or not reason, them to be in our own cultural understanding. As I come to understand, If a person is person of karate then everything that person do will have karate in it. There can be no separation. Conflict is conflict and resolution is resolution. How the conflicts ,or unbalancing, is resolved tells us what type of karate person we are. This is my understanding of Karate as it was passed to me by my teacher. This will also include social norms, religious views, political views, etc. These are all things that make up a person and one should ask how does karate fit into all of these. Again, this is my understanding from what I was taught.
One question I ask all my students is "Do you know where your feet are?" or "do you know how you are standing?" This has many implications other then knowing where a persons feet are placed. I have students that return to me years later and ask me if I only meant this in relation to their feet. Normally I just smile and ask them to perform a Kata then ask this question when they are done.
Respectfully,
Robert Orozco
Hello Everyone,
I hope that everyone is doing well. It is interesting that some people have become "unbalanced" in this thread. It seems that some people are taking a hard line on this issue and others avoid the issue all
together. I think this issue deals with the moral ethical values that everyone in Karate-Do states they practice. Before I go any further I would like to explain who I am and my back ground. I would also like to state that this is just my opinion and I do not wish to offend anyone here and apologize ahead of time if anyone takes offense to what i write here.
My name is Robert Orozco and I have been training traditional karate since the early 80's. I am of Native American descent (Chiricahua) as well of Mexican descent. I have often been asked since I was in grammar school where my family is from and I have always responded "here". I have been in trouble several times in school because I told my teachers the same thing and I refused to state otherwise. I have also done this in college.
When I was in grammar school, Jr. High, and High School, I have been told many times to go back to where I came from. I found myself in trouble many times since I always said the same thing back but many times asking people to go jump off Plymouth Rock. Funny thing is that people just looked at me like I was the crazy one (and I may well be).
I speak English (primary Language), Nihongo, Uchinaguchi, and Espanol. I do speak some Chiricahua but not enough to say that I can hold a conversation. Please note that these things do not make me an expert of this issue in any way but I felt the need to explain which glasses I am looking through on the socio-cultural level.
To everyone that is taking a hard line on this, please start asking all of your students to confirm that they are here legally as well as if they have any outstanding tickets, warrants, or have broken any laws in which they have not been caught or formally charged. (It is here I am wondering if people will actually ask if their students are murderer's, thieves, etc). Please make sure you do this with ALL your students, even if they have been with you for many years. Please make sure you do this to everyone you encounter that meets the "criteria" for someone that they may be here illegally. Please also make this a requirement for any tournaments, testing, gasshuku, etc that you may hold. Since this is the "LAW" please follow this to the "T" or you will be just as guilty as you portray the "lawbreakers". Please also post this on the doors of your Dojo, "We only serve people that are here legally" ,as well as making this part of your "dojo kun" until the law or the land changes.
Please also review the following laws as they pertain to Martial Arts in various states and let me know if these "LAW" should also be followed to the letter and reported by "informants" if they are broken:
http://www.loyola.edu/maru/laws.html
Now, before any one states that I am a "tree huger" and a liberal. Please note that I am a registered republican and have been for a very long time. In fact, many of my tribal brothers are also registered republicans and are very "conservative". I am also against the increasing number of "illegals" entering this , MY, country, the USA.
Please note that I also knew some Japanese, Chinese, and South Americans, that have overstayed their visit and their VISA expired but I did not have any issue with this. By the "informant" criteria in other responses, they should have been turned in to the authorities even though they were my friends.
* Do I think it is right that people are coming here illegally? NO
* Do I think that this new LAW will be abused? Yes
* Do I think that they are breaking the LAW? Yes
* Would I turn someone in for breaking this LAW? No
* Would I ask if someone was here illegally? No
* Would I teach someone that is here illegally? Yes
I will now return directly to the "Karate Do" part and the moral ethical values contained and it is here where I willingly enter into the M.A. discussion octagon. It seems that many people practice, or play lip service to some extent, the mind/body/spirit of martial arts. It also seems that there is a main concentration on the mind/body portions. The spiritual side is seems to be left to Zen, Buddhism, or other religious/philosophical ideologies. To many people this stops at the ability to quote a few "Zen" like sayings without understanding the socio-cultural aspects of when, why, and where these were said.
However, this really comes down to what a person feels or thinks is "right" as well as what makes a person "balanced". This includes one's understanding of origin of the "moral/ethical" side of their being or Martial Arts. In fact, many people do not express where this moral/ethical values come from as it may be taboo in the world of Martial Arts discussions.
As a persons teacher, I think that I have an obligation to explain the balance aspects of Karate as it pertains to the moral/ethical. I think this is part of the "balance" training and learning that everyone speaks about even though the training seems to mostly focus on the physical level. It is my belief that a person will do the right thing if they are taught to be balanced in all three categories. The hard part is defining what is the balance point in the three things and where does this "right" thing originate for a person.
Can this "right" be taught from doing kata, mukuso, bunkai, etc? How often is the "spiritual" aspect of karate taught in a dojo? Is this aspect only taught by spiritual leaders? It is of my opinion that the mind/body/spirit balance evaluation will answer this for many people. However. it will be hard to answer if there is more focus on the "Mind and Body" aspects but this should be a part of a persons on going self examination.
I think the decision and positions that are made by many here will reflect where they are balanced or unbalanced. I think that many people will need to ask where their "spiritual" aspect originates in order to take any kind of stance on this issue.
Respectfully,
Robert Orozco
Hi Robert, Quite interesting discussion and I appreciate the detail you are sharing for discussion.
The almost total annihilation of the Native American Peoples as a result of the clashing of European cultures moving into the America's is frankly beyond words.
The resulting `winning' culture had and has no adequate means to share it's existence was a result of the decimation of those who were there first. The Americas native cultures could not stand up to the more diseased intruder, literally biological warfare, unintentional and even intentional biological warfare intermixed with all the other manifestations of the taking of continents.
When we consider so many of the newcomers were arriving because of overpopulation, religious restrictions, etc. and it became convenient to de-humanize the American Native Populations that were based on cultural tandards the newcomers could not understand. It was easier to treat all of the populations as one, and built standards to make it easy to digest, Manifest Destiny among others.
Among the cultural gulf the societies based on oral transmission of knowledge in clash with the concept that written transmission of knowledge implied superior culture.
Which takes us back to Okinawa's original karate transmission based on oral transmission. As the arts Karate developed, they were mostly from a non-literate form of transmission. Almost no technical vocabulary meaning you had to be show first hand to understand what was required. Without a technical vocabulary others could not enter into the art's interior without being accepted for formal training. Likewise, if a student's ability did not have the same range as another's, the transmission to that student had no surrounding linkages and thus they didn't get it, whatever the it was in question.
When Itosu's students followed his directions and began the traditional era, it was their adoption of Japanese as the language of transmission, the adoption of terminology, the creation of systems of study, etc., all and more interesting they were the ones that wrote books. Singularly each only describing a slice of their arts, but as they're becoming available in English, together they describe a great deal from those earlier traditions before the `traditional' jelled.
I don't travel to Okinawa, and while I've had the same instructors since the mid 70's, they were the ones studying on Okinawa, much in a non-verbal tradition.
I'm not sure those original oral traditions will or should be shared with us, ever, except for individuals such as yourself who take the time to train and learn the correct language to allow you to join into those traditions. The Okinawan's have written a history of their arts, but they didn't first translate it for the rest of the world either. Nor did the original works of the 20's and 30's get translated into English, for the most part, because of any desire of the Okinawan instructors either.
In all likelihood, with today's efforts, we may have re-discovered some of those earlier traditions, but we should be ever cautions about trying to take the traditional and modern understandings and then project them back on the past.
Logic does not equate to truth, and truth in its most basic form, occurs when the nose meets my fist.
I must also note my use of karate's physical, mental and spiritual components is a rhetorical device to guide the student. You are most correct in reality the co-exist in each of us, would that it be with balance.
Victor Smith
Hello Victor,
I hope that this message finds you well. Thank you for your reply and the details of your thoughts. I find your responses very interesting and a pleasure to read and digest. It is very refreshing from the pontification I have witnessed on other boards. It does seem that you and I agree on many points.
Thank you for the details you presented in regards to the Native American culture and assimilation in the "American" Culture. My tribe was the last tribe to be at War with the US and has many customs still in tact. I do not think I can say this about all the tribes on the East Coast due to the amount of integration into the New World, however I could be wrong. Please bear with me on this next portion as it has a lot to do with Identity and I promise it will make sense when I get to the Okinawa part.
In regards to your comments about biological warfare, one custom is the giving of blankets when someone has a baby. My tribal brothers and I laugh about this at times because we always ask if it comes with Small Pox.
It is interesting to note that even though many "militant" Native Americans seem to be separatists, they really are not. In many of the tribal celebrations I have attended for various tribes there is always one thing in common, the American Flag. Many of the Native Americans, including myself, will always consider themselves American. and state that this is our country even if we do not agree with the Laws. It is the wish of many Native Americans that the federal government only stick to what they agreed upon before just one time. There is a joke that there isn't one single treaty between the US and the
Nations that has not been broken. I find myself thinking this when ever I signed a contract with a company I was about to be employed.
This view of being an American is what also got me in trouble in grammar school as well was my response to the question as what I considered myself was always "American". A question among many Native Americans is how do we keep with our traditions as well as be an "American".
My tribal brother and I were having a conversation the other day regarding the Arizona laws. I told him that I probably would not be visiting him soon since he lives in Arizona (I was joking). He asked me why and this is how the conversation took place:
He asked, "Why will you not come to visit?"
I said, "Well, I would have a hard time proving that I was here legally"
He asked, " You were born here and have a birth certificate and a Drivers License right?"
I said, "Sure, however, you know what being a Native American born in a small town in northern California makes you though right?"
A few jokes passed between the both of us in which I do not think will be appropriate in this forum.
I finally responded, "Caucasian" and then we both laughed. On by birth certificate it states that I am Caucasian. I know that today this is no longer used and scientifically this means that is people from Asian decent as well. However, what is the first thing that comes up when someone says that they are Caucasian. I have dark hair, dark eyes, and am dark complected. I can safely say that I would not pass for the typical Caucasian.
I said, "They would think my birth certificate would be fake and kick me out of the country."
Ok, now back to tying this into Okinawa. In my initial studies of Okinawa as well as the many conversations with my teacher, I realized that the Okinawan People were always trying to mainain their identity. With the influx of Chinese culture and Japanese culture it seems that this would be very hard to maintain. After all, it is Okinawa Japan and not Okinawa, Okinawa. With that being said it would be very hard to distinguish the "do" of Okinawa and the "do" of Japan, especially to the post WWII Okinawan people. One of these things is the term "Nuchi Du Takara". (life is a treasure). It is said that this is the phrase that the Okinawan King state to his people so that they would not go to war with Japan when he was taken as "prisoner" to Japan. I was actually taught this by an Okinawan Friend of mine first as he brought over a movie called "Ryukyu no Kaze" (very interesting movie about the Satsuma invasion of Okinawa). My teacher spoke about this phrase later as well.
Now to jump ahead to recent years, the last 60-70. Japan was at war with the US. The US invaded Japan (Okinawa). It was told to me by some Okinawan people that they were told by the Japanese government to commit suicide when the US invaded Okinawa. When the battle of Okinawa occurred there were indeed a lot of mass suicides, as well as people refusing to follow the order, and there is controversy as to why this occurred. However, this mass suicide seems to be in direct contrast to the phrase "nuchi du takara" and the "spirit" in which this was stated. So is the giri, gimu, on, etc of Japan really the same on Okinawa? Is this the reason why the differences in Shotokan, Japanese goju, etc that are noticeable?
When I first met my teacher he corrected many things I did, even ceremonial dojo etiquette that I believed was correct. One statement always came forward, "That is Japanese".
You mentioned this "IT" on the tail end of your post and I have always understood this from my teacher as "the in-betwen movements". My teachers has taught me that "it" is something that you will not be able to convey in textbooks or even video (he actually said this in the 80's go figure). These are the things you must feel and they must be conveyed by your teacher. From what I learned from my teacher, there are a few reasons why these will not be told to a student.
1. The teacher does not know
2. The student is not ready to learn
3. The teacher does not want to teach the person
I was once told by my teacher a story about how a husband and wife interacts by specific movements in kururunfa. I will leave it at this since it is very hard to convey without performing the movements at the same time. Interesting point to this is that was a representation of the sociocultural aspects of the relations ship of a husband and wife on Okinawa.
I have only had one teacher since the 80's. I do not feel that I have learned all I could from my teacher and it seems that there is still a long road ahead until I even feel remotely that way. I am confident that if by some miracle I was to reach the end of my learning from my teacher, my teacher would direct me to someone else. This is also what I learned from my teacher, what it means to be a student as well as what it means to be a teacher.
Respectfully, Robert Orozco
Hello Jim-san,
Thank you for your reply and I hope that you are doing well. I am not sure if my point was misunderstood as I was merely trying to point out the separate identity, culture, and ideology of the Okinawan people from Japan as well as what my teacher has told me in regards to this question. I also did not wish to get into a socioeconomic debate over the American bases on Okinawa and what would Okinawa be without US involvement (i.e. Okinawan People being treated as 2nd class citizens of Japan).
When I was in my 4th year of learning Japanese, I was once told by my Japanese friends that I thought and acted like a Japanese person. When I started to learn the Okinawan Language, I was told by some of my Okinawan friends that I think more Okinawan than most younger people on Okinawa. At that time of my life I did not know what this meant but now it seems to make more sense to me.
My teacher once told me a story about when he was young and bought 100 pieces of tempura when he received money from an American GI (this was a very long story and contained elements of greed and generosity). My teacher has told me many more stories like this and I have chosen to share them here with the group as many people seem to be interested in the Okinawan Culture and another persons understanding. Indeed this is an assumption on my part and I apologize if I am overstepping my bounds in this as well as my other posts.
The first time my teacher sat me down and said to me, "Ask me anything you want". I was very confused and did not know what to ask. So he just started telling me stories about Okinawa. Now every time he asks me, I ask him for stories about his teacher, Okinawan Culture and beliefs, as well as historical points of view. I also learned this from my teacher as he stated he did this with his and he called it "stealing the skill of your teacher". This goes far beyond just mimicking your teacher such as placing you foot in the same angle as your teacher. This is the "IT" that Mr. Victor Smith stated in one of his posts.
It does seem that if I leave out some details of history in my posts people tend to pick up on this and continue or state what I opted to leave out. Indeed there are many historical dates and such that I am not aware of or have committed to memory but this was not the main point of the posts. Again it seems that my point to the story and reason for posting what I posted is ignored.
It seems fairly difficult to have a discussion about the divergent views of M.A., specifically Okinawan Karate on many forums. This is the reason why I stopped posting in the Cyberdojo in the 90's and have not been online until earlier this year as I felt that I could not communicate effectively on my end. I thought my posts lead led to confusion as well as having my main points
seemingly ignored and my questions not being answered. The main one being where does one's understanding of "DO" come from? For me it is from my teacher. For others it may be a series of teachers, textbooks, movies, and personal theories about the view of Okinawan People/teachers/Etc. Also, my understanding of what it is to be a student of someone also comes from my teacher (although the way I was raised is very similar) and I am curious if other Okinawan teachers have told their students the same thing.
As a side note, my teacher once made a comment about the web page I put up in the 90's with many of these stories. The comment was not about the posting but about the time I was using to post these things when I should be practicing. Now it is much easier for me to post since I work out of my house and am on a computer all the time. I practice before and after work as well in my break times. Yes, I have a set of chi-ishi near my work station.However, in typing this I am evaluating the comment once more.
I am curious to know if you, or anyone else, asked any of your Okinawa(n) teachers these things and if you were told any stories about the culture of Okinawa as it relates to Karate by these teachers. It would be great if I could hear some stories about the cultural aspects of Karate from other people that have Okinawan teachers especially about things such as Do, Gimu, Giri, on, etc and how this relates to the karate that is being taught. However, I also understand if people wish to keep this private and that I can respect.
With all this said, it may well be me that is insane and I possibly have this all wrong. I will have to ask my teacher for some guidance on this the next time we speak
Respectfully, Robert Orozco
Hello Jim-San,
Thank you for your response and clarification (Ippei Nifedebiru!). I apologize for my misunderstanding your previous post. Thank you for posting what your teacher, Chinen Sensei (Uchinaguchi shi "Chinin Shinshi" yaibin yaa), has said to you about these "Japanese" concepts as it relates to Okinawan Karate Do. This supports my understanding that the Japanese "DO" is different then the Okinawan "DO".
(Akisamiyou!)
My teacher has often said the same thing to me directly when I mix up Japanese and Okinawan idioms. Many times this is accompanied with thump to the head. This being the case, my question to everyone that has studied or is studying an Okinawan "DO" art how does it differ in the Japanese "DO"? By this I am referring to not just the kata patterns or they way in which one looks at waza. But what is the character development aspect of Okinawa Karate Do if the concepts such as Giri, On, Gimu, Ninjo, etc, are all seen as Japanese concepts.? I can tell the difference in the stories from my teacher but I am wondering if anyone else has seen or experienced this difference as well.
Thank you for the exert from Mr. Fred Lovrett. What you pasted is a very interesting and informative read. I am only aware of these concepts and ideas from the many Japanese friends who tutored me in Japanese and I tutored them in English. These concepts were very hard for them to translate into English as they felt that it always missed the mark or there was something missing.
Giri no imi wa "Giri" desu ne?
Again thank you for your post and response.
Respectfully,
Robert Orozco
Hello Mr. Morgan,
I hope that you are doing well and I must apologize to everyone for not introducing myself. I will give a brief overview (Readers Digest Version) of my Karate back ground. My name is Robert Orozco and I have been practicing goju-ryu since the early 80's. I am a student of Yonamine Yasunori Sensei (Yunamini
Shihshi) since the mid 80's. Yonamine Sensei was a student of Yagi Meitoku Sensei.
Prior to this I learned from karate from a lineage claiming to be from Kyoda Juhatsu Sensei. I can not verify the lineage but the persons name was Adalberto Andino Sensei who claimed to be a student of Juhatsu Kimura Juhatsu Sensei who in turn was a student of Kiyoda Juhatsu Sensei.
Prior to goju-ryu, I learned Matsubayashi Ryu (I can not recall the name of the actual school or organization) for a few years. During this time period I also dabbled in various things such as Judo, Kendo, etc but nothing that is as significant the above mentioned.
I was a member of the Cyber Dojo a long time ago and dropped off for a few reasons as I described in a previous post. I first posted the differences between the Okinawan Culture and the Japanese Culture in the 90's on a little website I created. I can remember receiving several emails stating that I was wrong in one or two things:
1. This all came from China
2. Okinawa is the same as Japan
I really hope that I do not come off as someone who "knows" because that is far from the truth or the reasons for my posts. When I am with my teacher I feel as if I should be wearing a white belt and it is my first day ever taking karate. All I can offer is the things and stories my teacher has told me and my understanding of the stories. I am truly grateful for the things he has openly shared and giving him credit for my view on karate is what I will always incorporate into what I post.
I am hoping that some other people will join in on this and other conversations. I think that even "beginners" should join in and share their experiences with their teachers as well as their understandings of what they are learning.
Respectfully, Robert Orozco
Why are karate gradings important (at the Dan level).
Hello Christine,
I hope you are doing well. As others responses stated, this is a great question and topic. I once asked my teacher about the belt testing and such. He stated," why should he test me since he is my teacher and he knows what I need to work on and what I have improved". (BTW, I got thumped on the head for this question).
When I first started teaching, I was once asked by my students why I did not test them. I asked them if they wanted, I can test them but to me each time they come to class it is a "test".
In reference to an association certificate, how can someone really understand level a persons skill level and improvements if they are not their teacher. True many people may say that they can tell a persons
skill by watching what they are doing but I find that this is far from what one's own teacher thinks about the skill level and improvements of their own student. I may come under fire for these next comments, so now it is my turn to duck and cover. I do not mean to offend anyone as the following is just my opinion.
It is thought by many people that having various teachers is a good thing and it is noted that the karateka of old had various teachers. However, please keep in mind that many were introduced to other teachers by their own teacher, were given permission to go train with other teachers, directed to other teachers, or their teacher passed away. It seems that many people think that having various teachers will give more understanding on applications, movement, etc but I think that this only gets in the way. People often talk about traveling the "path" of martial arts and not the various "paths" of martial that they are on. This would be very strange. How can a person travel two or more paths at the same time? With this being said, how can you really have more then one "teacher" in the "traditional" arts let alone several people that will "test" you.
With the above being said, I can see where a person will need to search outside their own school/teacher to learn more about the intricate details if this is something that may be outside their teachers ability or knowledge. However, if the skill of the student has grown beyond the teachers ability of the student then the teacher needs to recommend another teacher to that student.
Now, if your school is structured where you will only be taught specific things at a specific Dan level then I would think it is best to test. However, if this is not the case then there is no need to test.
Respectfully, Robert Orozco
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