Once upon a time I sparked the following discussion. Of course I am not a medical expert, in fact Doctor Harper repeatedly told me only a fool would turn to me for medical advice. However, this discussion was most interesting and thought provoking.
Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:03:59 EDT
Subject: Striking to the Heart
I was able to have a conversation with Dr. Paul Harper, FACS, a member of my class today. We were discussing the issue of using the punch directly to the heart.
The issue wasn't that that was taught by Shimabuku Tatsuo or Uezu Angi, which of course is simply an issue of historical record.
Rather, the physical implications of a strike, with great focused power, into the heart.
Dr. Harper relates, unfortunately, he and the medical profession have too much information regarding this. They are constantly dealing with the chest area impacting the steering wheel as a result of car collisions. This is with greater force and impact than anyone's punch will generate.
He feels the most likely result of a strike with great impact would damage the surrounding chest and ribs. Certainly under the correct circumstances this might prove fatal. He also feels it highly unlikely that such a strike would stop the heart.
It is possible to stop the heart beating if the strike is done at the top of the heart's T wave, but as that is only 1/50,000th of a second, its rather improbable that a punch can be counted on to do so. He also questions whether a punch would even have that effect, as you're talking about disrupting electrical activity, and to do so would imply that a punch was generating an electrical charge.
If anyone has practice or knowledge that contradicts this, Dr. Harper would certainly be interested in seeing the statistical nature of this. Such as exactly where the heart stopping punch was delivered, the angle and nature of the force, as well as the number of times this has worked, and the number of dead resulting from these strikes.
He also pointed out that when a heart has stopped beating, Doctor's will strike the heart to try to get it to begin beating, and this is a recognized medical procedure.
As I also covered the discussion that took place regarding the usage of the punch to the Solar Plexus area, he agreed that strikes there would seem more practical in most cases. He discussed that there is not an internal organ known as the solar plexus, but rather that it was simply a general area of the body, and the strike is actually to nerve plexus under that area.
The medical implications striking the nerve plexus behind this area is to have a shock delivered into the internal organs of the body. The strongest reaction being the diaphragm would contract and breathing would stop, except as supported by the lungs supporting musculature. Hence the strong reputation of striking into the solar pexus area.
I hope I have not misrepresented Dr. Harper's words with this recounting. I simply thought that his comments would be of interest regarding this topic.
Yours in the arts,
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:59:33 -0500
From: John Moore
Subject: Re: Striking to the Heart
>He feels the most likely result of a strike with great impact would damage the surrounding chest and ribs. Certainly under the correct circumstances this might prove fatal. He also feels it highly unlikely that such a strike would stop the heart.<
Had one of my Patho students do a fairly extensive term paper on this many years ago. Don't recall the stats right now, but the actual incidence of commotio cordis in adults is amazingly low and, as mentioned previously, possibly even d/t existing cardiac problems in the person. A far more common consequence of blunt trauma to the precordium is "cardiac tamponade" - where fluid (usually blood d/t ruptured cardiac vessels) fills the sac surrounding the heart, leading to diminished cardiac function. This takes (a variable amount of) time to happen, and would not "stop" the person immediately.
>He also questions whether a punch would even have that effect, as you're talking about disrupting electrical activity, and to do so would imply that a punch was generating an electrical charge.<
While punches don't generate electrical activity themselves, they do/can cause transient changes in membrane activity/ion permeability, which can, in turn, cause electrical effects. While not confirmed, such changes are the basis of one of the postulated mechanisms to explain a "charley horse" in response to a good punch to muscle - an electrically active tissue. On a grander scale - all that a concussion is is an electrical "rebooting" of the brain, secondary to excessive force being applied to the skull externally (been there, done that:)
>The medical implications striking the nerve plexus behind this area is to have a shock delivered into the internal organs of the body. The strongest reaction being the diaphragm would contract and breathing would stop, except as supported by the lungs supporting musculature. Hence the strong reputation of striking into the solar plexus area.<
I would respectfully offer the following alternative for consideration -
Most of the dramatic effect of a SP punch would be the result of:
A) the "mechanical effect" of the punch. This would increase the intra-abdominal pressure, forcing the diaphragm up, and causing a sudden "Heimlich - like" effect. This would be especially effective if delivered during an exhalation, as a significant portion of the pulmonary "reserve volume" (that air that "shouldn't ever leave the lungs":) is forced out of the lungs. a.k.a., "having the wind knocked out of you".
and/or
B) Any neurological result from stimulation of the Celiac Plexus (a.k.a., the solar plexus) would be the result of stimulation of the abdominal viscera (mostly the stomach, liver, spleen, kidneys, and small intestines) by way of sympathetic fibers from the CP to these organs. In general, sympathetic fibers are inhibitory to these organ. Stimulation of the CP by a punch would have no significant neurological effect on the diaphragm, as this organ is not innervated by fibers from the CP. (Diaphragm is innervated predominantly by the 2 phrenic nerves from C3-C5, and a few intercostal remnants from the adjacent region.) Also, causing the diaphragm to "contract" would result in the recipient of the punch INhaling. Every time I've rec'd a good shot to the SP region, it has caused me to EXhale - FORCEFULLY!!!!!:)
So ends our anatomy lesson for the day:)
While some enjoy this - it is somewhat off-topic, and I hope I didn't bore too many of the list members:)
When all is said and done, "hit em as hard as you can" :)
Respectfully,
John Moore
Professor - Parkland College
Sensei - Spirit Dragon Isshin Ryu Dojo
Champaign, IL.
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:34:20 -0400
Subject: "Sanchin Court"
Hello...
I was thinking about Higaonna Sensei's most recent book re: the History of Karate (and Gojuryu in particular). One of the passages which was spoken of in several places actually concerned the question of correct/proper expressions of the Sanchin Kata.
One of the vague reference made (I can look it up if need be....) was re: a "Sanchin court". The impression given in said (unfortunately vague) descriptions spoke of an "examination" of practitioners by local physicians, doing Sanchin as they (the practitioners) understood it... in a friendly contest.
I'm curious.... what kinds of things would WE observe were we today to convene such a "court" today??? How would you tell who's expression was "more correct" if our approaches were radically different? (e.g. Miyagi & Higaonna method as the quickest example (not necessarily the best) which comes to mind...) Probably a bad example actually....
What types of things would you observe for, if the expressions were indeed tangibly different?
Thoughts Anyone?
Jeff B.
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Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:37:36 EDT
Subject: Re: Heart Punch and Solar Plexus
I too have to say that I find the concept of "stopping the heart" with a punch to be a fallacy. I have seen dozens if not hundreds of patients with blunt trauma to the chest. It is known that a blow to the sternum causes a small electric impulse in the heart. It is also known that the impluse caused by this "precordial thump" is on the order of 5-10 Joules in energy. We use this in attempts to convert a patient with a particular abnormal heart rhythm called "Ventricular Tachycardia" back into a normal rhythm. Ventricular tachycardia is a very sensitive rhythm however and often takes little energy to convert back into normal rhythm. Some people can do it just by coughing. For blow to cause a fatal abnormal heart rhythm it would have to fall in a very short window of time in the EKG cycle called the vulnerable period. While this period is certainly longer than the 1/500,000 s mentioned it is a short period of time measured in milliseconds. Also the energy required would likely be much greater.
We do see trauma to the heart from blunt force injury to the chest. This is called a myocardial contusion. It usually is associated with accidents at over 30 MPH (50KPH) and associated with sternal fracture or multiple rib fractures. In a myocardial contusion heart muscle cells are killed by the force of the injury and the complications are the same as a heart attack. Basically the heart doesn't care if some of it's cells died bacuse of crush injury or because they didn't get enough blood flow. Mostly that means abnormal rhythms in the first 72h or congestive heart failure. It would take a tremendous amound of force to cause immediate effects on the heart.
It is exceedingly rare to see ill effects from myocardial contusions unless there is also a tremendous amount of injury. Of patients who die at the scene from blunt force injuries such as auto accidents the usual causes of death are massive head trauma, massive chest trauma with pulmonary and myocardial injury, disruption of the aorta (which occurs in deacceleration injuries at over 30MPH), massive abdominal trauma. I have seen one patient with a ruptured heart who was brought in dead who was thrown out of the car in a high speed accident. I really doubt that anyone could cause immediate death from a punch to the sternum.
Robert S. Joseph, M.D., FCCP
Director, Critical Care Units
Community Hospitals of Indianapolis
Clinical Asst. Prof. Medicine
Indiana University
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End of ISSHINRYU-L Digest - 4 Jun 2000 to 5 Jun 2000 (#2000-139)
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