Question:
When I learnt Kusanku Sai I was taught the form
using 2 sai (when the thrown sai was performed you didn’t really throw the sai,
rather retained it and then continued the form).
Years
later I saw it performed at a tournament where the competitor placed a foam
block on the floor and then did the form with 3 sai (the third sai tucked in
his obi at his belt). Then when he came to the throw he actually threw the sai
into the foam block, then reaching behind his back extracted the 3rd
sai and continued the form.
While
I observed that form I did not attempt to practice it that way. Of course after
30 years I was content with what I did). But it was interesting to see.
I
realize most did not practice it this way as many did not have 3 sai, or a foam
block for throwing it into. Most dojo would discourage throwing a sai into the
floor. When working out in my yard I did
throw my sai into the ground to learn how that worked out.
I
remember once mentioning this to Sherman Harrill and the way he explained that
change made sense, so this is how I remember that discussion going.
“Originally
the kata was practiced with that throw into the abdomen of an opponent (or
rather toward where their abdomen would be), then the dojo became more crowded
and the sai could not be thrown safely that way. Then the Kusanku Sai throw was
changed to the floor.”
I
can understand that, the stories that the sai throw was into the foot of the
attacker to pin them to the ground I always considered a very strange use for
the sai, even if you were carrying 3 sai. A throw is a high risk move which
would not always work, and who wants to throw their weapon away. But throwing a
sai into the body of an attacker is a sensible move.
So
my question is how many practice Kusanku Sai with 3 sai?
Lannon Taylor I was taught the
3 Sai version by master Kichiro Shimabuku in 1973. His father did the 3 Sai
version. We were taught to throw towards the foot
Bill Pogue i learned with
three sai. we never throw it. one guy did and bounced up and broke ones of
sensei mirrors, so... later only imitated the throw. i never did buy the
'pinning his foot to the ground' also, sais aren't sharp, so throwing one is a
waste of time. not everything in our style is practical- and that goes against
the core principles of IR
David
Rogers
I train the kata with no sai at all half the time. There’s great empty hand
stuff in there
Charles Murray - Usually not me. But sometimes I do.
Thomas Hodges In Ryu Kyu
Kobudo we practice a three sai kata called Kogusku no sai sane kata is also
called Kojo no sai. The sai is thrown after a series of techniques that would
indicate the oponent would likely be laying on the ground at that point.
Indicating the thrown sai is a finishing move into a person/body already on the
ground.
I am not a practioner of Isshinryu kobudo, is it possible the sai thrown in
Kusanku no sai could be thrown into a downed opponent?
Not
all sai are not sharpened. I have two set of sharp sai and two set are not. At
the same time sai are also available that are tempered. Many sai are easily
bent or can break when practicing on weapons makiwara or in throwing practice.
Shawn Taylor Also to note,
Tatsuo trained with Taira Shinken, and the ryu kyu kobudo version you practice
was probably shown to him, and he adapted kushanku sai to use some of these
techniques that he learned from Taira Shinken.
Shawn Taylor Also, in the
Ryukyu Kobudo version, you have potentially stabbed your opponent with both of
your sai's before you throw one towards their base.
Thomas Hodges Shawn Taylor in Kogusku the
sai throw is done about the middle of the kata. To me that implies one opponent
down and done and another to deal with.
Another weapon and kata Tinbe and Rochin. The Rochin is thrown almost in
exactly the same way but it is the finishing move in Kanegawa no Tinbe. To me
also implies the opponent is down.
But Tamayose Sensei does practice throwing the sai quite extensively. One would
think for accuracy. So pinning of the foot could be a thought to Okinawans
also.
Shawn
Taylor Thomas
Hodges
it is conceivable that both are accurate accounts to what is happening, and for
training and teaching/testing purposes, it is done to the floor. In testing for
the said kata, you are required to neither throw it into a chunk of wood, or
mimic the throw, then set it down and turn while grabbing the 3rd sai.
Jithu Nair We do practice
kushanku sai with 3 sai sometimes. (Use to throw the right hand sai on mud or
sometimes on wood boards) but mostly we practice with 2 sai.
Gene Powell When Master Tatsuo Shimabukuro came to America in his visit
to Pittsburgh Pa. he went into a new gym with a beautiful new gym floor and did
his Sai Kata sticking one into the nice new gym floor. A sight to be
seen for all that were there.
Chris Thomas The sai is
thrown down for convenience. In application it is thrown at the opponent’s
chest
Victor Donald Smith As I have never had
the need to throw sai at anyone, the point is most moot to me. Sai is extremely
critical in Isshinryu training, as a supplementary power building exercise, an
important karate force enhancer.. Which makes where the sai is thrown less
important to me. Of course others probably have different opinions.
Thorne Williams 1968. Third sai
was implied. Foot throw was implied. With Ed Johnson. Fort Worth.
Cher Worth We never
practiced with 3, but vaguely remember being told at one point you lose a sai
to a midsection stab. But we just continued on with the same sai... more of a
“thing to know” you might get questioned about during testing, than how you
practiced the kata. Not sure if I ever learned a throw. I have seen it done in
tournaments with a 3rd sai tucked into the belt.
Mark Szalajko I study
RyuKonKai kobudo under Iha Kotara Sensei. In it we have a kata called nicho sai.
There is a throw in this kata as well. I take my students out onto the lawn to
practice the throw every now and again.
But when performing the kata in the dojo of course we never actually throw the
sai.
This is just a good way give students the actual feel of throwing. It takes a
little bit of practice for most to be able to penetrate hard ground and have
the sai saki stick into the ground.
Jayson Daniels I’ve seen it
done both ways - the throw usually only happening when it is performed outdoors
and the sai can be thrown into the ground.
Mark Radunz Harrill Sensei told me the throw was center mass of the
opponent and it wasn't intended to stick into the person. Nothing like taking a
nice piece of steel to the body to wake you up. He said the stab them in the
foot scenario was BS. They started throwing the sai at the ground as they got
tired of chasing them down the beach.
Victor Smith In 1990 I attended a clinic with Sherman
at Chester Houlbecki’s in Western Mass. There I questioned Sherman about this. He explained
that he was originally shown Kusanku Sai using 3 sai. The throw was originally into the abdomen of the opponent then the 3rd sai was
extracted in the kata. But the throw was changed
as the dojo had too many Marines in it to safely throw into the abdomen. That was
when the sai throw was changed to be thrown into the ground. It was not intended
to be thrown into the opponent’s foot, in
actuality the sai would be thrown into the center mass of the opponent.
Craig Ross Originally
learned with two then the third was added as I got more proficient. Have you
ever heard the story of TS throwing the sai into a brand new floor of a Sensei
who is pressuring him to perform the kata For his students?
Gary Hudgins At one time I
practiced the kata in the back yard. The sai was thrown into a pine tree. I
could stick it in the tree every now and then. If I practiced more I thing I
could stick in the tree a greater percent of the time. I never believed it was
to pin a foot to the floor. Try just going out without doing the kata and throw
it in to a target. If you do it right you have impaled your attacker.
Tim Cunningham My sensei once
demonstrated the sai throw into a 2x4 about two feet long that he had me fetch
from the storage room. I was doubly impressed: 1) because he buried the tip
deep in the board and 2) because the board was only a few feet away from the
mirrored wall.
He never stated that it was meant for throwing to the foot but I had always
assumed it was because of the nature of the floor being the target. Later as I
began to practice more and more I began to think throwing toward the lower
torso or upper thigh area was a more viable target. Thank you for confirming
the target area.
David Rayburn I have done it with 3 when practicing outside. I have been told that the throw of the right hand one wasn't meant for the foot, but to be safe and not to lose it, I throw it into the ground.. I use and teach 2 inside the dojo. The floor is concrete and throwing the Sai makes the students nervous.
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Victor Smith – I believe this
has been one of the most fascinating discussions in a long while. I would never have thrown sai into a tree trunk, of course it
might bounce off but more importantly I never wanted to damage trees.
However the discussion brought another memory to mind. When Charles
was stationed on Okinawa 71,72 and a new shodan, the school was not for the
Marines as they had their own dojo on their base then. Instead most of the
participants were Okinawans who dropped
in after work to train. It was not a beginner dojo then.
Charles trained there as much as possible when on the main island.
At times all day, but when stationed on another island, when he could fly in
once a month for a weekend of training. He studied Chantan Yara No Sai there
and often remarked how everyone in the dojo would help him understand the form.
Among his other travels there, at one time he visited a Goju dojo,
before class he observed the Okinawan students throwing sai to stick them in a tree.
So that practice was not Isshinryu’s alone.
As for puncturing the abdomen, while possible it was not probably
the goal, I would imagine
being struck by a sharp piece of thrown metal would
give a desired effect in an attacker, whether it penetrated or not.
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