06.16.2003 Dan Smith on Harry Smith's comments on Isshinryu
Sorry it has taken me a few days to answer Harry's questions. Seems like I am busier since I retired.
Questions:
1. Allowing fuller spiral motion. Is that the goal of your school?
Our goal is to get the maximum results from a minimum effort and spiraling motions are more relaxed than linear and produces a greater whipping action. So yes this is a goal of our training as it should be in all Okinawan Shorin Ryu training as well as kobudo.
2. Pulling the opposite hip rather than pushing the hip forward first is a by product? Yes. We do not focus on pulling the hips from the outside but rather by pulling the center forward and shifting your weight the opposite hip moves forward to keep up with the rest of the boyd. This action of "catching up" results in the whipping motion of the hip. Many people today call this using the "koshi" which in fact is the wide area of movement versus the use of the "gamaku" or even more specifically the shitabarra or lower, center stomach.
The hiki te, withdrawing hand, has IMHO been emphasized for the wrong purpose. It is not to make the opposite hand move forward it is to make the center of the body move and the opposite hand will follow with a relaxed whipping action. The Japanese missed this concept and only described as an equal an opposite reaction of the hands. If the hands move in an equal and opposite manner IMHO the power is cancelled out at some point and you do not obtain the whipping action that Shorin Ryu is based on.
3. Why is there more emphasis on a low shiko dachi in Seibukan vs. other Kyan lineage schools such as Isshin Ryu, Nakazato Joen and Nagamine Shoshin? I cannot speak for the other ryu ha but IMHO it just has to do with emphasis on experience.
For example; Isshin Ryu is the creation of Shimabuku Tatsuo and obviously has some influence from Kyan but it would appear only through the kata patterns and not the kihon. Additionally, we do not know how long or often Tatsuo Shimabuku trained with Kyan. He lived in the Agena area and during the period of time he would have had the opportunity to train with Kyan it would have been at a minimum a half days walk to Kadena. So, perhaps he visited Kyan on occassion but did not train with him regularly to get the kihon.
Nakazato Joen, only trained with Kyan from 1938 to 1941 during the period he was attending Kadena Agricultural School. Kyan was teaching what would be called at that time school karate and not dojo karate. Nakazato left to serve in the Japanese army in 1941 and did not return to Okinawa until 1952, seven years after Kyan's death. So perhaps during this time his stance became higher or as he got older the stances rose.
I do know from observing Nakazato Joen's kata in 1969 and on numerous times until 1999 there have been many changes which is normal for someone who has been training without a teacher for so many years. Nagamine Shoshin, only trained with Kyan for two six month periods. His training was influenced more by other Shuri area teachers and ryu ha during the formative years of his creating Matsubayashi. His kata still contain the speed and whipping action of Seibukan but with his age the stances became higher. I think a good look at the karate of some of Nagamine's older students who left him during the early 70's would show a very distinct difference in techniques and height of stance.
The Seibukan shiko dachi IMHO has remained the same height for the 35 years I have been training. It is really not that low as compared to Shorei Ryu as it is shorter in length and the angle between the hip joint and thigh is 45 degrees so as to maintain hip mobility and relaxation. Kyan used this stance to enable jumping in and out, weight shifting in any direction with a minimum change of providing a two deminsonal view to the opponent and to keep the waist relaxed and flexible.
4. Is the body raising up a by product of pulling rather than pushing? Yes. This does not happen when you are in a shiko dachi due to the feet being far enough apart that the weight shift to the front leg will not allow your back foot to move forward but when you are in a chokudachi as is used in the Fukyu kata the rapid forward motion will without effort bring your rear foot forward. If your feet move closer together you will rise up due to the feet being closer together. It is not the purpose of those movements(which came from Nakama Chozo vs. Kyan)to make the body rise up it happens from the action of pulling and the feet being closer together than in a shiko dachi. It is like taking a long step and then the rear foot rushing to catch up which will cause you to raise up slightly.
Hopefully this is understandable and helpful.
Gambatte
Dan Smith
6.16.2003
Ian Johnston"
Hi Dan,
CyberDojo@yahoogroups.com , Dan Smith wrote:
> 3. Why is there more emphasis on a low shiko dachi in Seibukan vs. other Kyan lineage schools such as Isshin Ryu, Nakazato Joen and Nagamine Shoshin? I cannot speak for the other ryu ha but IMHO it just has to do with emphasis on experience. For example; Isshin Ryu is the creation of Shimabuku Tatsuo and obviously has some influence
from Kyan but it would appear only through the kata patterns and not the kihon. Additionally, we do not know how long or often Tatsuo Shimabuku trained with Kyan. He lived in the Agena area and during the period of time he would have had the opportunity to train with Kyan it would have been at a minimum a half days walk to Kadena. So, perhaps he visited Kyan on occassion but did not train with him regularly to get the kihon. Nakazato Joen, only trained with Kyan from 1938 to 1941 during the period he was attending Kadena Agricultural School. Kyan was teaching what would be called at that time school karate and not dojo karate. Nakazato left to serve in the Japanese army in 1941 and did not return to Okinawa until 1952, seven years after Kyan's death. So perhaps during this time his stance became higher or as he got older the stances rose. I do know from observing Nakazato Joen's kata in 1969 and on numerous times
until 1999 there have been many changes which is normal for someone who has been training without a teacher for so many years. Nagamine Shoshin, only trained with Kyan for two six month periods. His training was influenced more by other Shuri area teachers and ryu ha during the formative years of his creating Matsubayashi. His kata still contain the speed and whipping action of Seibukan but with his age the stances became higher. I think a good look at the karate of some of Nagamine's older students who left him during the early 70's would show a very distinct difference in techniques and height of stance.
My Response:
Tatsuo Shimabuku created his own style from what he had learned from various instructors including Kyan, Miyagi and Shinken Taira. You state that he did not get the kihon and yet Isshinryu has both Sanchin and Naihanchi kata. These are both kihon (or base) kata. Sanchin is the basis of Goju ryu and Naifanchi is the basis of Shorin ryu. (Look it up on the Okinawan site posted on this list yesterday)
If by kihon you mean the basic techniques; it isn't that he didn't
get them it is that he had something different in mind because he
was combining the ideas of goju and shorin ryus. He created his own kihon to address these ideas.
Shimabuku stated why he did not use deeper stances. The very fact that only young, fit athletic types can do the deep stances is why they were removed from Isshinryu. It turns out that Isshinryu does in fact know how to compensate for less hip rotation from the higher stance......we turn the toes of our front foot in just slightly which frees up the hips. Using the vertical fist, thumb on top punch also had bearing on what techniques he would use from the other styles.
From my understanding from others who have interviewed Tatsuo's senior Okinawan students and his son, Ciso, Tatsuo trained with Kyan for 4 years and Miyagi for 3. I am not sure how often he trained but I am trying to find out.
Eiko Kaneshi, Tatsuo's senior student, said in an interview that he had studied with other instructors including Shoshin Nagamine but no one had chinkuchi like Tatsuo.
Obviously, Tatsuo got it........he just didn't necessarily agree
with it.
Ian
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