Jim Keenan's comments to Ian on Punching

From:  "jamesfkeenan"
Date:  Tue Jan 29, 2002  11:22 pm
Subject:  Re: bogus research

 

LOL !!

Nice try at a "gotcha" but it doesn't work, Ian, my lad. <grin> I'll
just take your comments apart point by point.


--- In "qayak"  wrote:
> Hi Jim,

 
> Incorrect, the article and another like it that I have state exactly
> what it is good for. Hitting the hardest with the least amount of
> damage to the wrist.



Neither punch executed correctly will cause any damage to the wrist,
so proving which does the *least* damage to the wrist is a worthless
exercise. (You also miss the point about assumptions on what the
gestures are for but that's for another thread.)


> > Since punching is not pushing, basing conclusions about punching on evidence for efficiency in pushing is inherently flawed.
>
> Incorrect again. Advincula uses this as a simple analogy to illustrate the point however,


If I'm reading your comment correctly here, you say that AJA teaches that punching and pushing are the same things? If so, that would represent a serious lack of education on AJA's part and a good example of "failure in transmission".


>I have seen Shotokan stylists hitting Makawara and every single one hit with a vertical fist when punching with full or near full power. The one person my instructor asked  about it said that it was to protect his wrist. The one person I asked said exactly the same thing.  <snip>


I have yet to see in person a Shotokan stylist punching correctly, so I'm not surprised that they were goofing up hitting the makiwara and having to make adjustments to compensate for bad training.


> The one I talked to also liked the extra support provided by placing
> the thumb on top. (Simple demonstration of stability)


The thumb position does not render the wrist more or less stable, the position of the wrist can be easily broken for either type punch, providing one understands the energy pattern of the gestures.


The "natural" way we punch in IR has a spherical characteristic; the spiral gesture has a spiraling characteristic. Striking the makiwara is not the best way to show the comparative "strengths" of each energy form.


> Incorrect again. You are the one with the preconceived ideas.
>
>Fact 1- less than 25 percent of the power in a punch comes from the arm.

No argument from me here.

> Fact 2- all of the arm power comes from the shoulder/bicep/tricep area, not from the forearm.

You are almost right. (see below)

> Fact 3- the pronators are in the forearm.
>
> Fact 4- there is no possible way that the pronators can add even small amounts of energy to a punch.

I suppose you have never used a screwdriver? The basic operation of  this tool requires pressure (shoulder, tricep, etc.) and the additional power of the twist of the forearm to actually drive the screw. This is the nature of the spiraling energy.

> Fact 5- pronating the punch puts more than twice the force on the  ulna. (16% force on the ulna in a vertical punch, 37% in a twist punch.)
>
> Fact 5- the ulna is even more at risk if the wrist collapses upon impact which it is more likely to do with a pronated punch as opposed to a vertical punch with the thumb on top. (Combine this with fact 5 > and you will understand why ulna injuries are so common.)
>
> Fact 6- the vertcal punch allows the arm to remain in correct  alignment for the muscles in the arm which supply the power for the punch.


Both your points 5 and 6 are directly related to incorrect training.


They may be "facts" of that incorrect training but they are not facts of correct training. I have been teaching continuously since 1969 (and, boy, am I tired! yuk yuk) and have neither experienced any ulna injury or had any student who had an ulna injury. Injuries arise most often from failing to follow the teacher's instructions or by following the teacher's instructions when the teacher actually doesn't know the correct practice method. (Think of how many people have "blown out" their knees, for example. Something, by the way, which has not happened to any of my students.) Anyone can find fault with incorrect training methods, even "researchers".

<snip of uppercut material>

Don't worry; you'll have other chances to prove me "wrong". This just wasn't the one.<grin>


I'm glad you felt strongly enough to spend time putting together a nicely organized response. I think this is an example worth following. When we spell our thoughts out in organized detail, it makes it easier to put our critical thinking skills into practice, to refine and expand our knowledge and understanding.


thanks

Jim Keenan