A discussion from a distant time, when many different people chimed in.
Sakiyama Sogen Roshi student of Miyagi Chojun Sensei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNV1qVZ1H8
Hey Victor,
nice conceptual summary. We've knocked this around a couple of times,
(mostly dealing with Matayoshi's seeming inability to do his crane forms
the same way twice) but this is a better synthesis of the idea.
I think you are pointing at two things:
1) we simply don't have the documentation to know what really happened. I
think you are right. I think that with an emphasis on real historical
methodology and a broader look at possible sources there is more
information available than we do know, mostly because much of it is not
held by martial artists. But in the long run, we may get closer to the
truth, but will never really KNOW.
That does not mean to me that we should not look. Some of the research
done has, to my mind, opened up ideas and brought to light information that
is very valuable. It does mean we should not assume we have found any real
truths, as it were.
2) kata may not have been a particularly set tool. I think you are right,
and I would posit a couple of different possible reasons. The true need for
deliniation came, I believe, from the Japanese influence on training- the
answering of the simple question "what does this art contain?" by the
Okinawans gives the replying structure: "it contains xxx". Suddenly, you
need to decide what xxx actually is.
At the same time, karate was influenced by foreign physical education
models, and insertion into a very strictly controlled school environment in
which it was necessary to keep large groups doing the exact same things.
All together, you get a concept of kata that is unchanging.
Personally, I would postulate that changes in kata are not part of working
with a teacher as much as part of leaving one and working on one's own. One
thing that is different about the past in Okinawan martial arts, and is
still true of many non-Japanese, non-sport oriented arts, is that any given
art is that of one person. Style names are usually prefaced or suffixed by
personal names. There is an assumption that each person will make the art
his or her own. In Okinawa, when you look back a bit, you stop looking at
Goju ryu, for example, pretty quickly, and look at Miyagi's art,
Higashionna's art, and so on. Same in the other lineages- one or two
generations ago there were just these guys teaching martial arts, with no
set sense of what should be passed down as xxx ryu. Not only did the ryu
not exist, the idea of them did not. There was no sense of style other than
whatever a single individual put together out of what he learned.
This means, to me, that while a teacher might pass on a kata to another in
a certain way, that person could do with it as he would, not only without
anyone saying he should not once he left his teacher, but without the idea
that there was a reason to keep the kata "pure" in the first place.
Everyone changes stuff. While we like to think differently, this art is in
one way about ego, of the "I can kick your ass" variety. People that are
deeply involved in that are not likely to say "I am not competent to make
changes in things as I see fit". Why should they? They can kick your ass
for you if you disagree with them.
That's a bit flippant, but it conforms to the idea of kata as a tool. If
the teacher thinks the form can help one to reach the goal invisioned
better, what reason is there to keep it unchanged, except preserving a
relic. It would be like saying we should drive a model T ford because that
is what a car should be, like it was in the old days.
Now of course, if the form is teaching certain body knowledge and changes
ruin that knowledge than the teacher has failed. But if it is, than changes
have, perhaps improved on it. If modifications while teaching either
conform to evolving understanding in the teacher (hence students getting
different versions as the teacher changes his ideas) or assist an
individual's development, then they are successful. If they inhibit
development, they are failures. That seems like the best measure to me.
cheers,
Fred
Hi Victor
The recurrent theme... Kata was undoubtedly the pedagogic tool for the karate transmission since its beginning. These tools are the identity of karate, that is, there is no karate without this method and principles. However, these tools are subdued to variations since its creation. The essential questions is that don’t matter how many variations you introduce in a kata: it will be the same if you preserve the basic ideas (tools). I think that this is your “-ness”. If you change or substitute the ideas, it will be other kata and will receive other name.
Let me to do an analogy. The same essential or vital genes occur in all animal and vegetable species on the earth. Suppose, for example, the gene for the protease, an important enzyme to the metabolism of any cell (it accomplish the digestion of proteins). However, if you do a sequencing of the gene’s nucleotides (the basic chemical blocks of its DNA) you will notice a remarkable difference among bacteria, rats, chimpanzees, birds and man protease genes. But, you will also discover that some sequences are the same fro any species: these are the sequences that determines the essencial function of the enzyme (several regions that folds together to form a place where the enzime perform the digestion of proteins). The others variants parts of the molecule are selected according other specific particularities of the organism. This could be represented by the following sketch:
...[SHORT FIXED SEQUENCE]...variable set...[OTHER SHORT FIXED SEQUENCE]...other variable set... ETC. This did not save.
Now, I see the katas as following the same principle as do any system based in sequential information (see, for example, the theory of Harold Bloom for the universal literature, that is shared with many others writers as, for example, Jorge Luis Borges and many others: the literature repeats the same universal themes along of the centuries).
So, I am convinced that the true kata keep its “fixed sequences” that is it original identity (“name”, “body”) and purpose (“ideas”, “soul”). See, for example, any Seisan version: you will identify Seisan by three themes:
the three first steps of uke/tsuki;
The three sukui/osae uke sequence;
the three directional uke-zuki-geri sequences,
don’t matter if the version is from Shuri (Matsumura, Oshiro, Aragaki, Kyan, etc), from Naha (Miyagi, Kyoda), or from Uechi. The fixed sequences or the essential function of the kata is there.
You have also many variants of Rohai: Itosu (?), Matsumora (?), Matsumura (?), all them very different from each other. However, you will see “The Rohai” or your “Rohainess” in the simple theme: one-leg stance kamae, advancing to a block and punch. Only this.
You will see several very different versions of Wanshu, but all them have the same identity (“-ness”) that name the kata: the swallow theme.
In Goju-ryu, the identities of the katas are very curious and easy to notice: they are found in the geometric center of the kata.
I have isolated the “original genetic sequence” of some kata as a sort of catalogue or “Okinawan karate treasure” (I have isolated about 30 “-ness”, as you call), and passed on them to my advanced students as “the original karate principles”. The three sequences of Seisan, that is the same to any version, are today my basic training tool for beginners (after be trained in these sequences, they learns Seisan), the bearhug theme of Seiunchin (that occur in several variations in the kata – in fact, all Seiunchin is a “bearhug kata”) and the kata, the swallow theme of Wanshu and a very simplified version of the kata, the Rohai theme and a practical simplified version of the kata, and Ananku (the best kata for kumite I know). When they are well trained, begin the work with Sanchin and Naifanchi (getting power from stances) and it will be ready to shodan examination (I discontinued Gekisai because I find it is out of the original karate architecture and to me it is a kihon and not a kata). It is my opinion that if a person know the main themes of the Okinawan karate, it didn’t need to know all the kata (I learned about 60 kata to get this conclusion).
[As a footnote: Rohai and Wanshu are very important to know because they teach two principles that are not found in Goju-ryu kata. Ananku is a living catalogue of Shurite basic techniques that cannot be ignored. After these kata (no forgetting the 3 Naifanchi!!) Goju-ryu will be sufficient, IMO.]
Cheers,
Fernando
Hey all,
It seems our thoughts are starting to converge in to the same thought. I would like to present something I have been working on since I saw the clip of Odo doing Sanchin with all the funky circles.
I took each of the various versions of Sanchin and have watched them over and over, looking for the minute differences and seeing what could possibly account for all those versions. I think I have hit upon it. The concept of this underlying "Universal Pattern" of which Victor mentions.
Odo Sanchin is the major clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0sJRze_Ns
Can you explain it?
Between the various versions are some of the clues:
1. The concept that it origainally was only a forward moving kata with not turns (Miyagi).
2. Turns introduced because of drill like status (Higashionna, Miyagi, Juhatsu, Uechi)
3. A pulling in of energy into the center and basic understanding of breathing, movement, offense, defense, and use of the mind in coordinating all of these. (all)
4. Blocks concentrating on Inward energy (Uechi)
5. Blocks concentrating on outward energy (Miyagi)
6. Movements done to various counts in order to promote technical thought and skill, but an over all consolidation to the theme of 3.
7. An Open hand version. (Higashionna, Uechi)
8. A closed hand version. (Higashionna, Miyagi)
9. A purpose for training internally.
10. A purpose for training externally.
11. A purpose for moving forward, backward, and stationary.
12. 3 basic skills (whether one handed L or R, or both hands simultaneous) The block and the punch, the morete nukite, and the wa uke "circle block".
13. Linear actions and circular actions.
14. Inside fighting (Naha versions) Outside fighting (shorin versions) ** note: this is just a concept thought and not particularly referring to versions.
15. Sanchin is a method of pulling Ki into the muscles (Fernando)
Ok.... here goes. I'll try to explain and put together what I am thinking. We'll concentrate on the Punch and block aspect for now.
The kata sanchin has many facets which must be explored to their fullest.There are superficial level lessons with the kata and that there are more in depth knowledge that are "disguised" (some call these secrets) :)
One facet is with breathing and balance. (THis one we all know) Maintaining proper posture and breathing through the tandiem while in motion is this aspect of the kata that is the #1 facet.
Another facet of sanchin is the link with finding ki, learning to absorb it, learning to move it, and learning to project it. Sanchin is unequaled in this aspect.
Tensho is more about sensitivity to the energies, moving them about, and projecting it out at various angles. IT does the same thing as Sanchin but much more complicated. We will Ignore it for now.
Facet # 3 of sanchin is the combat lessons it teaches. This facet has several layers to it and each one is a facet to itself. We'll discuss one of them.
In this facet, the aspect of combat that is nothing but striking and blocking. It is represented in the basic punch, the basic block, the basic concept that one must move forward into the attack to win or survive.
There are a couple of lessons here. Fernando taught me one..... "When one punches or strikes, one must return to a guarded position." It was a lesson of Akamine. The other is one one from Oyata, Kimo, and my wife....." When one blocks one must immediately strike back in response".
Here comes the tricky part ! .... do it.
Not just once but in every move!
Now use these two lessons with the concept that "all is in opposition".
This occurs on the basic level, but with the most minute movement. SO lets look at the micro-mechinism of technique. Combining all of these will help us see the Odo Sanchin.
LESSON # 1
In the initial movements of the kata there is the hands going out and the hands coming back. Here we see several possibilities. One response is to strike or push and return to guarded position. The other is more already into the attack, you have been pushed or struck at and you are blocking and striking (but you must return to the guarded position).
LESSON # 2
What are the strikes being taught in sanchin. The reverse punch is the most obvious answer. But on closer examination we see the possibility of the uppercut or back knuckle strike. (the first view of the rule of opposition in striking: the palm up and palm down fist strike)
The second observation is on the reverse punch. When the hand is returning to the on guard position, the other hand must be going out slightly (rule of opposition). Again this confirms the palm up strike.
The third observation occurs when one is at the standing sequence and doing the three repetetions without moving. Here is the perception of the reverse punch and the lunge punch (Rule of opposition).
So we see the actual techniques taught are:
1. The reverse punch.
2. The short upper cut backknuckle strike.
3. The lunge punch or jab.
LESSON # 3
The on guard position. This has three overall aspects. The first is the "on guard position" aspect where one is ready for action, and the second is the "blocking aspect" where one is keeping something from making contact with himself. This second aspect has two parts, the inner-blocking aspect and the outer blocking aspect. This gives the creation of a total of three aspects. The on guard, the inner blocking, and the outer blocking.
The on guard aspect is first seen in the opening kamae with both hands in the blocking position. The two blocking aspects are seen within the capabilities of the single arm blocks. Higashionna did the on guard, Miyagi did the outer, Uechi the inner (at least this is my perception).
LESSON # 4
Look at the micro-mechanics of the reverse punch to block sequence, this is where the next lesson occurs. You have the fist strike (palm down), The inner block and the outer block (rotation of the arm), the back knuckle strike (arm at 45degree), and the on guard position (arm at normally perceived blocking position).
Now do this several times but allow the actions to happen..... do it!!!
Punch, innerblock, outter block, knuckle strike, on guard..... do it and watch.
Now do it faster.... :) What do you see as you look at yourself?
If you are doing it correctly you should see a spiraling effect that is occuring. This is what Odo was doing in the sanchin kata he did on the Nafadi library version. It gives the appearance of doing little circles but it is actually tension and techniques.
Now do the techniques, but don't let the arm move much to the left or right on the blocking action.... minimize the movements and you have the small circling shaking actions of Odo.
Now do the same actions but make it mental only.... do it in your mind not your body. You have the simple technique of punch and block associated with sanchin. THis is why the slowness of the kata must be stressed and has been stressed.
Now lets focus on the other arm. :) in example the L arm that is left out while the R arm is doing the reverse punch to block position.
The Left Arm is doing a inner block, outer block, palm down fist strike, guard, palm up strike, return to guard. It may not seem like the palm down fist strike is there, but it must be according to the rule of opposition. As the right is pulling back to punch, the left must strike out and the palm down continues the circling action.
Now coordinate the LA block with LFF position with punching RA.
1. As the right is being chambered the L is inner blocking..... as the punch occurs the L is outer blocking.
2. As the right is inner blocking, the L is slightly chambering..... as the right is outer blocking the L is palm down punching.
3. As the L is withdrawing slightly in guard, the right knuckle strikes..... as the right is withdrawing in guard, the L knuckle strikes and returns to guard.
4. Both hands are in an on guard position.
The coordinated view here between the right and the left is seen more in kata at the standing position where the three repetitions occur.
Now... can you see the Odo sanchin?
All the movements applied and all understanding and you see the Odo sanchin, but do it under proper mental restraint not allowing excessive movement and you see regular sanchin.
What is actually going on is multiple actions and minute reversals!! When the hand is pulling the other is pushing, when blocking the other striking, when one is creating an opening the other is filling it with a strike, etc. Total opposition!!
Sanchin does pull ki into the muscles, but there is so much more to it. You can see all the variations of others sanchin patterns and movements within this understanding.
The secret is that all the kata versions are correct, it is just a perspective. So you need to find the perspective that answers all the possibilities. Then you will find the original kata.
A secret is only understanding that one possesses that another does not yet comprehend.
Till later.................... Ron
Hello everyone:
We have all been speculating what the original Naha te kata were
.
What Miyagi MAY have added and what Higashionna originally knew. One key to this puzzle lies in a recent publication by Goju-ryu Kenshinkan's Hokama Tetsuhiro.
In one of his most recent books, "Karate-do Rekishi Nenpyo Dai ichi Satsu" (A Historical Chronology of Karate-do Vol. 1) Hokama writes the following:
This is a pre WWII footage taken around 1935, not in 1939, and it was included in a documentary on Okinawa around 1935-1936.
It is one of the oldest footage on Te, and the only pre-WWII footage on Goju-ryu (but there are a lot of pre-WWII photos of Goju, and a lot of them have been taken at the same time that this footage was taken).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s45Nfadpba0
1918 - In this year film footage of Itoman's Macha Buntoku (Kinjo Matsu) is taken. Also during this year Kyoda Juhatsu (age 30), Shinzato Jin'an (age 17) along with 4 or 5 others do a group performance of Kurufunfa and Tensho. Shiroma Koki, Tabara and Nakamoto Seibun, etc. and 50 others perform Seiunchin. This is
probably the oldest footage ever shot on Okinawa (Preserved in the
Okinawa Prefecture Karate Museum). (pg. 36).
WWll! This certainly caught my eye when I read it. And when I was in Okinawa last February I paid a call to Hokama sensei to try and confirm the existence of this film. After practicing with at his dojo on a Saturday night (which was interesting to say the least), I had the chance to finally sit down and talk to Hokama.
He stated that the film had been taken during the Battle of Okinawa from some unidentified Okinawan's home by an American soldier. It had been rediscovered years later and eventually was sent to him. Where he verified the identity of the performers. Although I was not really able to see the film in question there were literally dozens of photos of a very young Miyagi and Kyoda performing San Chin and Tan exercises all through the museum. They IMHO had obviously been taken with a video frame grabber.
Whether this film will ever be placed on video or see the light of day is a complete unknown. I discussed the film with Higaonna Morio who said he would approach Hokama Tetsuhiro about the film.
As I mentioned before, if this film ever saw the light of day, it would suggest that these kata were in existence just shortly after Higashionna's death in 1915.
Oh yes, one more thing. In the same book Hokama states:
December, Higashionna passes away (age 63)
That year Miyagi Chojun (Goju-ryu) travels to Fuzhou, China to study Chinese chuan'fa and creates the kata Tensho (based on the Southern Shaolin kata Rokkishu).
Ah, more to think about.
Regards,
Mario
Kikugawa Sensei performs Seipai at the old Jundokan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VVzCbMZawE
空手道剛柔流宗家講明館 宮城敬 セーパイ演武 TAKASHI MIYAGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7All1dl1BAg&t=6s
Shuichi Aragaki, who was a direct disciple of Miyagi Chojun Sensei, the founder of Goju-ryu, and was the only one alive. He is also the vice president of Koryu Goju Karate-do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtk-C3lC_K4
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