Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue have a dialogue on the old CD - Part 3

 

Back in 1997 I was new to the internet and the CyberDojo. Almost immediately I found a lengthy dialogue between  Patrick McCarthy and George Donahue.

Patrick was a well known competitor, practitioner and author on his arts. He knew George as his book editor at Tuttle, but not as a martial artist.

George had been raised in Japan, was on an old Samuri tv series as a youth playing the younger version of the samurai for flashbacks when he learned various lessons. He later trained in karate on Okinawa. Established a Kashiba Juku group in the states and eventually became the martial arts editor  for Tuttle Publications.

Knowing that Patrick was in a somewhat heated discussion on the CD when George weighed in. Beginning what would be a lengthy discussions of an extremely erudite level of discourse. I do not know of another discussion of similar character. A discussion that does not exist  today.

This will be challenging but well worth the effort.

Because of it's length I am breaking it into several parts.
===============================================================


From Digest 1369 Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:08:05 CDT


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:23:45 +1000
From: "Patrick McCarthy" <Bujin@bigpond.com>
To: <karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Hanshi, Kyoshi, Renshi Titles
Message-ID: <06302509321458@onaustralia.com.au>

Hanshi, Kyoshi, Renshi Titles continued

Mr. Donohue,

I took pleasure reading the first part of your assertive and frightfully provocative, if only incomplete, response. You sound really switched on and tuned in. I wait with baited breath for part two before responding. One subscriber emailed me today saying that the issues you and I are addressing might very well serve as the foundation of an all-to-needed book on the subject.

Patrick McCarthy

-----------------------------------------------------------
From Digest 1371   Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:09:07 CDT



Date: 25 Jul 97 12:30:14
From: gdonahue@randomhouse.com
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Oshiro seminar in NJ
Message-ID: <199707251628.AA19265@interlock.randomhouse.com>

Hello all,

I was in the middle of composing the second part of my response on titles, etc., when I got overwhelmed by work and family responsibilities.  That response will come along as soon as I can get to it, but first I'll move along to some shorter things.


For those of you who won't be attending the East Coast CBQ, here's a consolation prize:

Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro will be holding his annual Yamane Ryu seminar in this neck of the woods on Saturday, Sept. 6, at the Bloomfield Middle School Gymnasium, 60 Huck Road, Bloomfield, New Jersey.  Clinic A, from 10 to 12, covers bojutsu.  Clinic B, from 1 to 4, covers sai, tuifua, and nunchaku.  Cost
is $55 in advance and $65 at the door.  For registration and information, call Dong Tran at the Asian Arts Center (973) 276-0560.

Oshiro-sensei is the foremost practitioner of Yamane Ryu in the US and has issued the often-mentioned Tsunami Productions tapes on Yamane and Unadi.  His seminars are always fun and informative.

I've committed to the CBQ, but many of my students will be going to this one.


George Donahue
----------
gdonahue@randomhouse.com / gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com
Kishaba Juku of New York City at the Ken Zen Institute of Japanese Martial Arts
and Culture
Okinawa Karate-Do Shorin Ryu Kishaba Juku / Matsubayashi Ryu / Ryukyu Kobujutsu
Nana korobi, ya oki.



Date: 25 Jul 97 12:51:57
From: gdonahue@randomhouse.com
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Reactive hips and qi flow
Message-ID: <199707251651.AA19976@interlock.randomhouse.com>

Rich Boyden asks:

<cut>
> Now, here's where I get shaky (no pun intended ;^> ).  If I
> understand right, the reactive hip method that is used to
> some degree in, among other styles, most karate schools
> and the Feeding Crane branch of White Crane
> throws/rolls one side of the pelvis forward, then letting the
> force/jin roll up the twisting torso to the shoulder and out
> the arm.  I haven't described it well, but you can see it
> done by an Okinawan named Oshiro on
> Dragon/Tsunami's tape entitled "Uchinadi."
>
> Assuming I understand how it's done (big stretch), here's
> where I get a little confused. If the hip rolls forward and
> the body turns a little with the punch, then I seem to be
> able to do with my punch what my qigong teacher says
> to do with one's push.  Oshiro demonstrates this well.
>
> If I'm punching quickly, however, I feel like my hip has
> already begun to roll backward by the time I make
> contact.  The result of this is that my shoulder also starts
> backward and locks without the benefit of its final
> "oomph" right at the end of the punch.  What's the deal?
> Does one simply have to sacrifice to speed that final
> push?

Oshiro-sensei is my senior as a karate student of Kishaba Chokei.  The punching technique he demonstrates on the Uchinadi tape is what we use in Shorin (Matsubayashi) Ryu Kishaba Juku.  The hip does roll back as you describe.  However, it doesn't roll all the way back, just partially, then moves forward once again to add more drive to the punch.  Although the hip retracts, the punch never does -- its momentum is constantly increasing until it's buried in the target.  The retracting hip doesn't really move backward, either.  It retracts in relation to the rest of the torso, which is moving forward.  The net movement of the hip is all forward.

This is actually much easier to do than to describe.


George Donahue
----------
gdonahue@randomhouse.com / gdonahue.kishaba.juku.usa@juno.com
Kishaba Juku of New York City at the Ken Zen Institute of Japanese Martial Arts
and Culture
Okinawa Karate-Do Shorin Ryu Kishaba Juku / Matsubayashi Ryu / Ryukyu Kobujutsu
Nana korobi, ya oki.


Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:06:51 +0000
From: JANOSND@mail.bay.k12.fl.us
To: tuite@bluegate.com
Cc: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Reactive hips and qi flow
Message-ID: <5A3D9EE022A@mail.bay.k12.fl.us>

Hello,

Rich was inquiring about the intricacies of proper koshi (hip or lower abdomen area) manipulation. The "reactive" hip is really not the best way to describe this action as it implies that the koshi only goes forward, then back. In fact, much more is happening.
 

The real idea is to impart your power when you have made contact with your target. Not before. Most folks rotate their hips and then throw out their punch. The rotation and punch should occur at the same time. This is the "first" hip motion. Relaxation in the shoulders and arms is crucial at this time. Once the fist (or whatever) has made contact and penetrated slightly,  it is time to explode your energy inside your opponent.

This explosion of energy is accomplished by using the compression created in your koshi during your movement and rotation. This action is then a sort of a "reactive" hip. Shocking power is the best way I can describe it. It is not really a push, it should cause a reaction in your target like an electric shock. The push is used to demonstrate the power in a more visually apparent way. Try to think in terms of a whip, or whipping power instead of pushing power which is easier to produce and somewhat less effective. This koshi usage then entails using several "rotations" and tucking or crunching of the pelvis in order to connect the energy throughout your body. As far as stance is concerned, after this concept has been learned, the same power(s) can be issued regardless what stance or position you might find yourself in.When practicing this kind of idea, try to start by using big circular motions in order to connect your koshi to your limb(s). Advanced students may then discharge power from much smaller motions, even while already in contact with the target. You should be able to punch with power from any distance. Of course, this only covers the koshi idea for punching and does not take into account the variations used for blocking, striking, kicking and grappling. Several different powers can be produced by this method , each having it's own function and method.

Paris Janos
Kishaba Juku Shorin Ryu


Date: 25 Jul 97 16:53:21
From: gdonahue@randomhouse.com
To: karate@raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Dai Nippon
Message-ID: <199707252051.AA24275@interlock.randomhouse.com>