Harry and Dan have a discussion beginning with Nakazato

 
Harry (a Shorinji Ryu stylist who trained on Okinawa) raised some questions and Dan Smith (a Seibukan Shorin Ryu stylist who trained on Okinawa) gave response to Harry's questions.

This was a great discussion from the past and tells us something about what was occurring on Okinawa in the recent past.

Dear CD Members,     Nakazato Thread

 
Several responses to Harry and Pat.

 
I appreciate Harry's study of Seibukan over the last few years. He has put forth lots of physical effort along with time and finances. He has been searching the paths of the Shorinji that came from Nakazato Joen through Japan and now back to Okinawa. Seibukan has been another link to his study and the members of Seibukan have enjoyed his relationship.

 
I pursued the many of the same paths that Harry has been following to find the relationships of the students of Kyan in the late 70s and 80s. So, it has been informative for me for someone with another view point to share and analyze what we have found. It is also helpful to have another view point of Seibukan. I believe we all can become myopic when it comes to our own methods. So Harry, please keep up the effort and if anyone else wants to join in our journey we will be going back to Okinawa in March of 2006.

 
Harry, I am not familiar with the terms kaisho, goyosho (sp) or shosho (except that this can mean certificate). Is this something that JN uses to describe the pedagoy of his dojo?
 

I agree that in Seibukan  Zenryo sensei and Zenpo sensei  stressed that the kihon of the kata is the same for beginner or advanced student. The process of continuing to strive for perfection of technique is the "Hallmark" of mosof the superior Okinawan karate technicians like Higaonna, Shinzato and Z.. Shimabukuro. I think Harry has found that Itokazu sensei of the Matayoshi Kodokan has the same driven requirement for the perfection of basics. While this may not be the best way for everyone it appeals to me perhaps because of my Shotokan background?

 
The comparison of Seibukan and Shotokan by Pat. As Pat will recall that I hypothesized several years ago in a white paper that I believe that Funakoshi and Kyan had similar training with Azato, who was the last student of Matsumura that trained Funakoshi and Kyan in the Sakiyama Garden Dojo after Matsumura's retirement. The more than coincidental similarity to the kihon of Funakoshi and Kyan IMHO has lead me to believe that at a minimum there is a strong connection between Seibukan and Shotokan. H.D.Plees two books have pictures of Yoshitaka Funakoshi is the strongest link to the similarities of the methods. Where Shotokan has changed in many directions in the last forty years it appears that Seibukan has more of resemblence to Yoshitaka Funakoshi's karate than could be coincidental.

 
On a side note. Pat, I appreciate your memory of Bangkok and points south but it shocks me to realize that was almost 40 years ago and most certainly a different time and life.  We need to hook up on Okinawa next March to celebrate our continued love of karate.

 
Comment on Seibukan's growing kata list:

 
1. Pinan, Naifanchi, Passai Gwa and Jion were added under the direction of Zenryo sensei through Chozo Nakama. These kata are not taught as part of the regular Seibukan curriculum. They were intended to give Zenpo sensei a connection to both Shorin Ryu lineages. Matsumura to Kyan to Zenryo Shimabukuro to Zenpo Shimabukuro and Matsumura to Itosu to Chibana to Nakama to Zenpo Shimabukuro. Only senior Seibukan members learn the Chibana to Nakama kata. We also picked up the Motobu kumite drills through Nakama.
 

2. Fukyugata - These two kata were added in the early 1980s when all the Okinawan Karate Rengokai members learned these kata to celebrate the 50 year anniversary of the original demonstration of these kata created by Miyagi and Nagamine. These kata are used as warm up exercises and are the basic promotional kata of Okinawa.
 

3. It was mentioned that Seipai is part of the Seibukan curriculum. Seipai is not practiced as part of our curriculum. In 1986 Zenpo sensei sent me and my oldest son to one of my Goju Ryu teacher to bring Seipai into the dojo for Seibukan members to use for tournament competition since none of the Seibukan kata are included in the shitegata of the WKF. Zenpo sensei's thought was that we would not change one of our kata like Kusanku to the shiteigata method but we would learn a kata that met the shiteigata requirement like Seipai. So, the only Seibukan people that learn Seipai are those that compete in WKF tournaments. It should be noted that Zenshun Shimabukuro won the Okinawan World Championship in 2001 with Chinto as since 1986 our Chinto has been added to the shiteigata.

 
IMOTO that all Okinawan karate is about the same at a macro level and that the more we search for differences the more we find more similarities. The Okinawans have known this for a long time but the path of finding this out for yourself is worth the effort.

 
Gambatte
 
Dan Smith