Kyans punch

 Victor said:

>But a factor in Isshinryu's founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo's use of the
vertical strike can also be found documented by Nagamine Shoshin in
his "Tales of the Great Okinawan Karate Masters" on page 89. There he hows a photograph proclaiming the vertical strike was "Kyan's original punch". [Course just because Nagamine wrote it doesn't make it true, but it can be considered as Nagamine was a student of Kyan.

 

For total sake of discussion the picture or the accompanying text doesn't describe how the strike ws delivered, whether turning or delivered Isshinryu style.] Assuming Nagamine was being accurate, not doubt Kyan's instructor was a factor in his thinking on striking.



Hi Victor,



With the particular issue of Kyan's punch, I think it is important to note - as
you have - that the depiction in Nagamine's book doesn't show how the strike
developed, and that we should guard against the assumption that the picture does.


Kyan sensei's punch justice.. or even the assumption that this was the only
punch used by Kyan sensei. I do not dismiss the fact that Nagamine was a student 
of Kyan by any means, but it is curious that so many versions of this punch are
offered by Kyans students if it were taught specifically as kihon by Kyan
sensei.


My own view is that the picture's main purpose is to explain the principle
behind a fist position of this kind (ie punching high from low) and hence by
extrapolation (Kyan sensei at 4'10" tall) might have found this useful when
striking things. As the photos suggest, this punch does gain an order of success
particularly above one's own shoulder line. But having said that, and seeing the
conversation spilling over into how this punch was taught to the students of
Kyan, and to Kyan himself, I refer to my interview with Joen Nakazato in March
of this year.


I asked him specifically about this punch (in whatever form it has come to be
represented now by schools of Kyan descent) and he says this was always Kyan
sensei's own punch and Kyan specifically *did not* teach it as such to his
students.. It wasnt that they were all taught differently, but they all saw him
using his punch.. but Kyan never actually taught to them to punch this way, and
further, that Kyan specifically warned against students imitating HIS punch
(under the principle that one develops ones own kihon)



Nakazato sensei went on that the full rotation was always used by Kyans students
(including Tatsuo sensei) pre war... and that what Kyan actually *taught* was
the full rotation, not any version of standing or 3/4 fist.. JN expressed his
surprise that when he met up with other ex students of Kyan after the war
(including Tatsuo sensei) that they were using these Kyan type punches. His
surprise was not that he hadn't seen it before, but that no one else had ever
used this punch in their own kihon before. I received some convincing
corroboration of this 'change' of punch in information received in person later
that trip from a senior Okinawan instructor of Kyan lineage and also,
separately, from yet another extremely reliable source, that Nagamine sensei had
confirmed this 'change' in another interview in 1996. I think this might in
part account for the variations in the depictions of this punch, and I have come
to the view that subsequent versions taught are personalized versions of
imitations of Kyan's punch.


With regards to what you say here about Kyan's instructor, I would say that
however Kyan arrived at this technique, it was under the tradition and principle
of making your kihon your own, but also, and importantly, consistent with the
tradition and principle of actually teaching and transmitting the kata in its
base form, without 'advanced' personalized, innovations (such as advanced or
personalized striking methods)... It is perhaps due to this older tradition
regarding method of transmission that we cant readily trace any instructor who
passed this punch - specifically - to Kyan.


Incidentally, October 2005 is the 60th anniversary of Kyan sensei's death in
very sad circumstances..(deep rei)


How could he ever have guessed folks all over the world would be discussing his
punch with each other via computers 60 years on... quite fantastic.


love harry



Hello!

Excellent post Harry! (Even though you had informed this to me before)

... tradition and principle of actually teaching and transmitting the kata in its
base form, without 'advanced' personalized, innovations (such as advanced or personalized striking methods)... It is perhaps due to this older tradition
regarding method of transmission that we cant readily trace any instructor who
passed this punch - specifically - to Kyan....

There is an interesting observation in the book of Mark Bishop when he
interviews Seikichi Hokama about practice of Tomarite (according to lineage
in the book he is a student of Kotsu and Konin Oyadomari who in turn has
been student of Kokan Oyadomari) "The full-corkscrew punch was not encouraged..."

We know well that Kyan sensei was influenced by Oyadomari Kokan sensei...
If we assume that he learned different type of punching from Tomari guys
didn't he had a small dilemma to think which one he chooses as a standard?

Bye
KImon
 
 


https://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2022/01/memory-on-isshinryu-vertical-punching.html