Howling to the moon

fpcamara
Date:  Mon Feb 11, 2002  8:22 pmfpcamarab 11, 2002  8:22 pm
Subject:  Howling to the moon

 

Many people practice karate without a historical view. Yeah, I know that it is
not necessary to be a good karate performer. Today, the bunkai fever, kyusho
theories, lots of expensives seminars where up grades of karate styles with
aikido & jujutsu are made, etc, have cast stranges concepts into the karate
wisdom and the simple truth is now very far, disappearing on the horizon.


Look for a moment this anomaly in the classic karate: while all Japanese MAs
have a code of conduct and a code of techniques, they lacks in karate. Why?


Another anomaly (I promisse that will be the last time I will mention this): if
koryu karate kata were built on bunkai, so why are they not paired kata like we
found in all Japanese MAs (including here the notorious Shorinji Kempo)? It is
unacceptable the ridiculous pop version that solo kata was created to hide the
secrets from spies.


Stranges concepts has altered the meaning of karate and their kata. Where is
the original concepts? We lives now in a jungle of concepts in the karate
doctrine that it is transforming our art in another thing (aikiken?
jujutsuken?). If kata are/were the veicles of karate transmission, what do they
want tell us? Why they must be trained solo and not paired? Why we see so many
interpretation in their moves?


Ju-jutsu is ju-jutsu, and it has a clear purpose. Aiki is aiki, and it has a
clear purpose. Kobu-jutsu is kobu-jutsu, and it also has a clear purpose. But,
why mix karate with ju-jutsu, with aiki, and others things if is it an Art into
its own rights? Why we need to think with ju-jutsu IMAGES to interpret
something that has not these images (karate)? Idem, with Aiki images. While
everybody knows what is ju-jutsu & coetera, why karate remains lost in obscure
theories? Finally, what is the true purpose of karate? How can we make it so
clear like the others MAs? What were its original CODES (techniques and their
purposes)? What were its original CODES of CONDUCT (how to move into of all
scenarios of the society without conflict)? If we have the answers to these two
question, we will have found the (historical) meaning of our art (its identity)
and our search will be finished.


Where are the Codes? How can we reach them? I suggest a colective research
beginning with the archetype of Okinawan kata: Seisan.


Back to my madhouse.

Fernando

 
Hi Fernando
,

I will howl with you.


My instructors were not taught there were any applications to kata.
At best they were hinted at in the few self defense tricks taught on
Okinawa. [The logical inference being there are NO applications to
kata.]


Other Okinawan's still state "Here are the applications and you must
figure more out yourself." [Logical inference "I don't know anything
else", or perhaps, 'You're too unworthy to share with.']


Others show them on occasion, but consciously reserve them for their
senior students. [Logical inference in those cases you know you're
unworthy to share with].


Add, there are no open rules to govern, and the hints left from the
past seniors, are perhaps too obscure (or still in Japanese) for
others to draw upon them.


As I accept karate arose from non-verbal traditions, then the seniors
in those traditions were responsible to provide the map, or context
for those answers.


For most of us, those living maps don't exist. Now most on this list
are in a quite different state. You have seniors to guide those lines
of inquiry (should inquiry even be necessary).


With no rules, no guides, no law givers, it there is no reason to
expect any logical answers will arise.


Frankly there are infinite potential uses for any movement. That
infinity of potential can lead to the babble complex, leading one to
believe good karate demands you dig out every potential for every
student. On the other hand I suspect it demands the Seniors should
be the ones dipping into that well, but not using their studies do
drown their students in a Tsunami.


In my humble case, I've been left with no rules, no rule giver, too
many friends who've shared to much of their own studies, and only my
own plodding logic to try and make sense of all of this.


That, in part, is what possessed me to begin my attempt to define
kata (from my own perspective of course).


Now the world being commercial, it is obvious, those who are willing
to sell anything, with the right advertising (and underlying
psychological premises) will draw the rest who likewise have nothing
to start from.


Then there are many who get enamored with other study and want to
overlay it with their art. One of the systems I trained it, the
seniors over the past 6o years, did just that, melded Shotokan,
Aikido, Tjimande and Kobudo, into forming a composite (hidden Jutsu)
system. The resulting art is extremely interesting, it just isn't
karate, in an Okinawan framework.


I don't have better answers at this time, so I guess I'll just go off
and howl.  Victor

 

From:  Fred Lohse
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:17 am
Subject:  Re: Howling to the moon


As usual, thought provoking! Your point about changing or "upgrading"
karate is really spot on. In the US, I think one reason that that behavior
was so common was that the art that was popularized here was first taught
by students with at the most 3 years experience- the "upgrade" was needed.
In Okinawa there is not so much emphasis on this type of "upgrading"
(though there is an emphasis on practicing some bunkai for all the
classical kata in the two schools I am most familiar with- shoreikan and
shodokan). I personally think this need came from Japan as well. Funakoshi
didn't teach some of the levels of his art, and even if he had, the
Japanese were very interested in making the art Japanese. To do so, it had
to conform to the standards for a "real Budo"- include joint manipulation
techniques, have a progression of such techniques and a way to do them
paired, and so on. A primarily striking art with a good dal of solo
practice was not "real budo" enough, so it needed the upgrade, as it were.
One other avenue of examination might be traditions that focus on solo
kata- Chinese and Indonesian forms, for example. My experience here is
limited. From what I know, their practice is often very similar to that of
karate- lots of form practice, simple paired sets and paired drills working
on principals of motion and sensitivity, and some examination of the
techniques in the forms. I do know some Chinese forms use full-length
paired sets for their forms, but I do not think this is common, and cannot
cite which styles. (Toguchi supposedly got his ideas from hearing about
this.)


And as for kata hiding ANYTHING from spies, I find this absurd as well.
The concept that techniques are changed in kata so that they cannot be
stolen is crazy- if you don't want people to see your kata, do it behind
closed doors. It is simple enough to demonstrate only very basic forms, or
a prepared demo form instead of the meat of the style, if you need to
demonstrate. I just can't see there being any need for hiding technique in
the forms themselves, particularly as it could word against really learning
the skills taught.


Anyway, thanks for the post!

cheers,

Fred


 
From Gojute
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:56 am
Subject:  Re:  Howling to the moon


Arrrooooooooooooouuuuu!!!
      I tried to howl but it came out looking like something out of Tigger and Pooh  :)

Hello,


      The reason many practice without the historic view is because they trust what they were told and have not investigated for themselves. They place too much trust that their instructors have given them the total knowledge. Only those with a deep interest and the spirit within them ever check further. I do not think this is any different from the past ways.


      Secondly, they do not stay with their system long enough, due to a lack of patience, to discover its true depths. Or if they do, they find the weakness of an incomplete art due to a lack of knowledge passed on from the past.


      People needed to be taught how to teach and pass on the complete info not just for the individual. BUt this was the way of the times.... the dark ages.


      As for conduct codes and a code of techniques lacking in karate.... I think the best answer is to look at the development of fencing. In looking at its past we see karate. Look at fencings development:


(Paraphrased plus, from "The Inner Game of Fencing" by Eric Evangelista)
 
1.combat techniques derived from watching animals, hormones and raw emotion, with the equivalent of modern "duking it out".
 

2.Rome organization in gladiators and the legions. The demise of Rome led to a structure loss.

3.THe dark ages and medieval times we see the resurgence of #1 and #2 but to a lesser degree of #2. Knight were primarily offensive and the lower classes fought dirty with tripping and groin kicks and punches were added.

4.THe Renaissance brought about thinking and efficient blade movement. Gun Powder made it obsolete and a conscious and deliberate decision was made to move away from earlier rough and tumble methods.

5.The printing press spread and established new fencing method.

6. Two handed and single handed sword play had its day. Brute force moved away and science and logic took over. Ideas were blended, broken, and created.

7. 14th century German guilds helped solidify concepts.

8. 15th century, the thrusting rapier dramatically changed thought. Circular disappeared and linear thought took over. The Spanish developed a method based on geometry and philosophy and took it to England armed with the rapier and took the fencing knowledge crown from England.

9.17th century the french took reason and order and produced a system of point play. THe weapon was refined and increased speedbrought refinement on both offensive and defensive techniques. Thought shifted from msrtial art to sport due to the peaceful times.

10.18th century, Fencing became a discipline, a self-awareness developer,used to enhance physical well being, promote logical thinking, and vent competative aggression.

11.19th century, 3 forms took shape: foil,epee, and sabre. Safety started to be an issue wit the invention of the fencing mask.

12. 20th century, a yearning for traditional values, egocentric and noble ways. THe sport of "touch" which was weakening the art, and the classical knowledge that completed the person.....conflict between the two. THe sport for youth, and when one reached the end of that knowledge of the futility,fthen the return to the classical knowledge and nobility that developed the person into the thinking fighter, not just the   making of the touch.


      We see the cycles repeating till unity occured within the art in concept, thought, and technique.


      Now compare this to the development of Judo, Kendo, and Karate.... but dont forget the interruption of the war and defeat of Japan. Karate never got to the completeness of thought because of the lack of unity. Until the arts do unify in their knowledge, it cannot continue to its fullest.


      As for kata and bunkai.... I see a great truth here. Fernando once told me that all Sanchin is now looked at was not what it was intended. I have reseached and found this to be true IMO. THe basic punch, posture, breathing, and a concept or two were all.


      But it did change!... more was added, each teacher adding a little knowledge or interpretation. It is no longer the same. But the old knowledge should not be lost... neither should the new knowledge be ignored.


      I see the wisdom of Miyagi in defining Sanchin, Tensho, and Naihachin as the basics. These need to be completed in their development and understanding as applys to the new knowledge gained from them.


      The rest of the kata....bore the knowledge of the past but had inherent weaknesses which required the need of the other kata from the other systems. THese held the secrets ofself-defense from different concepts.


      These concepts must be understood...... THen they must be viewed in terms of techniques and the kata. Not only for specifics, but for the complete knowledge contained from each. THen they need placed in a method that connects and completes them.


      This answers the  "why" of the question of why so many styles seek the knowledge from other styles mixing them to add within their art now days. Till the concepts are understood and faced and unified..... our art will not develop.... if any thing it runs the risk of fading as the past as sword info did in Rome.


      It will complete though, whether under our guidance or at a future time.


      Completing this will lead to the code of concepts, code of conduct, code of technique, code of purposes.........that should be within our art.


Seems we each have a madhouse.... now back to mine also....I may join Fernando for tea at his.

Ron


From:  Fred Lohse
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:57 am
Subject:  Re: : Howling to the moon


Hey Victor, Fernando-


interesting posts. Victor, I think in some ways you speak directly to what
I was talking about. Your first few comments ring very true. My experience
on Okinawa and in Sakai's dojo was that bunkai was an essential part of
training. However, it was something that was not really gotten into until
the student was, to use one measure, over sho-dan level- usually after 3-4+
years of training. Up till then, the student did lots of kata, basic (and
more complex) paired drills, but paired drills that were essentially
isolated techniques, or very basic (punch/block) bunkai for simple kata
like Gekisai. But after that point, while the emphasis on kata was
retained, to this was married a study in the meanings of classical kata.
This was not exhaustive. The usual comment was, as you point out, "there are
other meanings, and you should explore them, but here are some starting
points". Interestingly enough, I also heard "if you master the principals
of Goju, the meanings become more obvious, so keep going back to the kata,
don't spend all your time on bunkai" (and most flattering to my ego "if you
come up with a really good one, show us").



The idea seemed to be not a question of worthiness, but one of
experience- you weren't ready to clutter your mind until you had some time
under your belt, and a good mastery of basic movement and principals. These
are taught by kata, kata, more kata, and some paired drills. Adding Mario's
comments about how Kyoda taught, giving hints but making students find the
meanings themselves (however, maintaining veto power, giving me a sense he
was directing this search more than the students realized), and that his
students have been more explicit with Mario about bunkai, working
techniques with him directly, I see a many-tiered situation.


The kata form the core, and allow entry. Basic techniques accompany this
study. Once basics are covered, the student can continue to explore kata by
examining the more in-depth meanings. This, in turn, modifies the practice
of kata- how many of us have seen a kata performed differently based on how
the performer is thinking of the techniques in it? Subtle changes take
place, and usually for the better, as the kata moves into a different
abstract realm. The dance becomes more focused, as it were. This then
returns to application and so on. In one sense, you could consider
application as a tool to better refine the kata, and the principals of
energy development, motion, and delivery contained in it. This needs to be
monitored however, so that the bunkai does not get too wild, and change the
kata much.


That is one reason I see bunkai study as essential, but not central, if
you know what I mean. It is, as Fernando pointed out, easy to get lost in a
bunkai malstrom, working on more and more techniques, treating the kata
like a reference book instead of a course of study. However, if the kata
have no meanings, it is easy to do them in many different ways, sometimes
odd and at odds with the principals of the style. In Higa's, Sakai's,
Toguchi's and Kimo's dojo, once in the ni dan and up range we did fairly
simple paired sets for the classical forms- techniques working through the
various movements in the kata. All averaged 5-10 techniques per kata. None
of the sets covered all the kata movements, especially as there are so many
ways to break them down. None were set in stone- they changed periodically,
abet very slowly- in years not months. All were accompanied by the caveat
"you must keep exploring beyond this", and all were much more detailed than
anything covered before, including kyusho, kuzushi, and many other core
principals of the system.


I look at them as a tool to progress- they help shape kata development,
enabling the mastery of principals that can get translated into spontaneous
movement.


As for other study, I think that people get enamored of it because it can
form what appears to be a short cut- a way to quickly get to techniques
that need time to get enough mastery of the basics to work on. This, in my
mind, becomes a cheat because it removes these techniques from the
principals of the style, using the basics of another set of principals
instead. You get a mish-mash of techniques that lack a core, even if they
all could have come from the original style They were approached from
different angles, as it were, and unifying them is very difficult.
Occasionally it works, occasionally a new art is created, and usually you
get something that is disjointed and unweldy.



Anyway, this is long. Thanks for listening to my howling.



cheers,

Fred

 

From:  taylorrg  
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  12:18 pm
Subject:  howling

Greetings - Had to add my voice to the howling , but, like most things
I have a opinion about this and why it is.


In essence Karate is a civil art, and as such it shaped by the
civil and ethical laws of the culture we live in.


A martial art has a much simpler code, it is not encumbered by
culture , so it is easier to also focus the practice of a
martial art on the physical, this is where it is played out
and it is really shaped by the military culture which has
its own goal ,not the civil culture which has a different goal
or the individual who my have another. In essence there are
less levels to a martial art, ya just break stuff and kill, not so
in a civil art, this may or may not be the goal.


I am frequently reminded that karate is more than a physical discipline
it is a mental discipline that can develop a particular frame of mind.
practice of drills and bunkai work the physical, and are level specific
we are responsible for the outcome, they deal with the here and now,
the practical, but also the future outcome and responsibilities for these
actions.


Kata can be practiced from a martial perspective , but,
I also believe kata practice can go beyond this, it is a BEING
practice that not only has physical, and mental roots, but is
directly related to cultural and spiritual beliefs.


When karate is imported to a new country, its looses much of these
cultural and spiritual foundations, the code you seek in the kata
was really to be found in the total cultural experience.


When karate was taken to Japan it was uprooted, the physical
shell was transplanted but, to give it depth and meaning the
Japanese culture needed to be worked into it, the same is true
of America, I can study Okinawan Culture all I want, I can
know what it is in my head, but if its not my actual belief
system, if I don't live it and believe it , my karate code will
be different regardless, it will follow my beliefs, my culture and
be slanted toward what this culture expects of it and thinks it
should be.


looking at the physical forms, we also loose the translation for
some techniques, what about movement designed against the topknot
or movement designed to take advantage of baggy sleeve etc, or
belts, or the things we might actually be carrying and have in
our possession, what happens when we disassociate these movements
from their culture, what do they translate into ?


When I practice kata I can use it for moving meditation developing
a frame of mind , breathing and working on circulation of energy etc.
This type of practice must be done often, and sometimes solitude is best.
On a less frequent bases we must interact and learn the physical
application, but, in the end its the mind that is more important.


My opinion is karate is a way of being, as well as a way of moving,
Since we have diverse cultural and worldly experiences and beliefs
our beings are very different, we can share the kata movement ,
but, our code, what we live by, what is a part of us, our values
, ethics, spiritual beliefs, (moral culture ) will differ by culture,
it has to, we can not go back and live as they did in 1800 Okinawa,
we can not believe what they believed, no matter how hard we try.
This mean the applications my also very because of what we believe .


So I guess my reply is the code of karate are found in the culture
we live in, and many applications will be based in our culture.


nice r.t.^..^ Romney

 

From:  FPC
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:39 pm
Subject:  Re: howling to the moon


Yes, there was code of techniques and conduct in the original karate. To get
some idea about these codes of conduct take a look in the Funakoshi's bio and
some stuff found in Karate Kyohan. Vestiges only.


These codes are the difference between men like Matsumura, Itosu, Higashionna,
Funakoshi, Miyagi and Mabuni, and rufians that can be better fighters them, but
not better karateka.


These codes of conduct are not military codes, and most of them are not
conditioned by the local culture. These codes cover a large spectrum of conduct
as, for example, how you must nourish and dress in cold or hot weather; how you
must behavior and walk in dangerous places; how you must behavior in foreign
places with the local women; how you must arrange the room where you sleep;
what you must to train, why and how; etc. Codes of techniques are associated
to some strategic kata, the most old (the Tode protoype) being Seisan, a pocket
treatise about Tode-jutsu. Sanchin is part of this code with a specific
purpose, etc. If we know how Seisan was trained and its moves used, how and why
Sanchin was prescribed to beginners, we will have the essential to decipher the
others classical kata of a lineage.


If we don't know the specific purposes of what we are doing, we will haven't
motivation to continue and absorb the art as part of our lives/souls. As
Thomas Aquinus said: the knowledge should be as a food that we eat and it
became part of our bodies. Knowledge without participation it is not knowledge,
but mere intelluctualization.


All art, including karate, has a high purpose in complete the human figure to
its most perfect form. "Quod natura relinquint imperfectum, Ars perficit".


The problem was that karate became bastardized when peasants, seeing that they
could get much money teaching karate than in the farm work, became instant
"masters". They learns imperfectly and without substance, and they passed on
kata imperfectly and also created ineffective kata that today are taught as
"treasures".


I think that we can only evaluate the greatness of men like Miyagi, Mabuni,
Funakoshi or their masters, when we understand their search on the kata moves.


Fernando
 


From:  Swift Joe
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  8:54 pm
Subject:  Kyoda Precepts


The Teachings of Kyoda Juhatsu by Murakami Katsumi
"Karatedo to Ryukyu Kobudo" pp. 15

The following training precepts of Karatedo were taught to
me by Kyoda Juhatsu Sensei.

- Build a healthy body
- Cultivate a strong spirit
- Honour harmony
- Avoid fighting and condemn violence

I make it a habit to recite these precepts before my own
training.
 
Joe

From:  Travis Cottreau
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:11 pm
Subject:  Re: Re: Howling to the Moon


Victor,


I love your short essay, which your posting definitely is. You've quite
clearly summed up the bad situations with bunkai in the karate world.


After seeing lots of crap out there (during the hour of the rat, hit this
nerve under the right point of the elbow, quickly followed by a jab to the
left kidney and he's out like a light), and some of the better things out
there (I count some of my instruction at home as some of that, mostly clean
application), I am pretty much of the mind that no one really had bunkai in
old Okinawa. Not as we see it anyway. I think that we have mostly a situation
where we are imposing our modern opinion of what is correct onto the past in
Okinawa. Our cultures are completely different, there's no reason why our
thought on bunkai must be the same. They might look at modern bunkai and
laugh. I know that I do on occasion.


I've read various translations of material by Chitose and Mabuni as well
as more modern stuff by George Mattson. I really don't think that the kata
was supposed to have application. Chitose says that "the old teachers didn't
show us the meaning of kata, we had to learn it for ourselves through
diligent study" or something similar to that. If you look at Chitose's
applications and arm locks and throws, they are most likely taken from his
experience in Judo (5th dan kodokan judo). He had experience in many martial
arts, armed and unarmed, not just karate. He didn't feel restricted to limit
his style to just karate, but put many things in there. He wasn't interested
in preserving pure Okinawan karate, he was interested in a better martial
art. At the same time, he wasn't interested in throwing karate away - in
fact, since he was a master from Okinawa, probably anything he did qualified
as koryu karate. The same goes for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Miyagi and a score of
other masters. I don't want to come across as a Chitose worshiper here.


Still, my opinion is that you're going to miss a lot of the application
strategy that Chitose intended by just learning in Chito-ryu karate class,
after all, it isn't Chitose teaching you now, it's a many generations removed
student of Chitose - how good is his bunkai, how good are his instructors?
You pretty much have to go and train with judoka or in aikido or jujitsu
classes. That's where most of the masters out there got their bunkai anyway,
it isn't from koryu karate. If it is, you'd never know anyway.


By the way, I love your quote: Now the world being commercial, it is
obvious, those who are willing to sell anything, with the right advertising
(and underlying psychological premises) will draw the rest who likewise have
nothing to start from.


Too true, too true. I feel bad for the world where people will put aside
their good sense and pay money for something just because they don't have any
of it. It's like wandering a street starving and having someone yelling
"table scraps, table scraps, get your egg shells and potato peels!" and
buying what he's selling instead of looking around and finding a restaurant
to spend your money in.


Like you, I don't have answers either, but I hope that I can cling to my
good sense.


Travis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Subject:  Howling to the moon


 


Many people practice karate without a historical view. Yeah, I know that it is
not necessary to be a good karate performer. Today, the bunkai fever, kyusho
theories, lots of expensives seminars where up grades of karate styles with
aikido & jujutsu are made, etc, have cast stranges concepts into the karate
wisdom and the simple truth is now very far, disappearing on the horizon.


Look for a moment this anomaly in the classic karate: while all Japanese MAs
have a code of conduct and a code of techniques, they lacks in karate. Why?


Another anomaly (I promisse that will be the last time I will mention this): iffpcamara
Date:  Mon Feb 11, 2002  8:22 pm
Subject:  Howling to the moon


 


Many people practice karate without a historical view. Yeah, I know that it is
not necessary to be a good karate performer. Today, the bunkai fever, kyusho
theories, lots of expensives seminars where up grades of karate styles with
aikido & jujutsu are made, etc, have cast stranges concepts into the karate
wisdom and the simple truth is now very far, disappearing on the horizon.


Look for a moment this anomaly in the classic karate: while all Japanese MAs
have a code of conduct and a code of techniques, they lacks in karate. Why?


Another anomaly (I promisse that will be the last time I will mention this): if
koryu karate kata were built on bunkai, so why are they not paired kata like we
found in all Japanese MAs (including here the notorious Shorinji Kempo)? It is
unacceptable the ridiculous pop version that solo kata was created to hide the
secrets from spies.


Stranges concepts has altered the meaning of karate and their kata. Where is
the original concepts? We lives now in a jungle of concepts in the karate
doctrine that it is transforming our art in another thing (aikiken?
jujutsuken?). If kata are/were the veicles of karate transmission, what do they
want tell us? Why they must be trained solo and not paired? Why we see so many
interpretation in their moves?


Ju-jutsu is ju-jutsu, and it has a clear purpose. Aiki is aiki, and it has a
clear purpose. Kobu-jutsu is kobu-jutsu, and it also has a clear purpose. But,
why mix karate with ju-jutsu, with aiki, and others things if is it an Art into
its own rights? Why we need to think with ju-jutsu IMAGES to interpret
something that has not these images (karate)? Idem, with Aiki images. While
everybody knows what is ju-jutsu & coetera, why karate remains lost in obscure
theories? Finally, what is the true purpose of karate? How can we make it so
clear like the others MAs? What were its original CODES (techniques and their
purposes)? What were its original CODES of CONDUCT (how to move into of all
scenarios of the society without conflict)? If we have the answers to these two
question, we will have found the (historical) meaning of our art (its identity)
and our search will be finished.


Where are the Codes? How can we reach them? I suggest a colective research
beginning with the archetype of Okinawan kata: Seisan.


Back to my madhouse.

Fernando

 
Hi Fernando
,

I will howl with you.


My instructors were not taught there were any applications to kata.
At best they were hinted at in the few self defense tricks taught on
Okinawa. [The logical inference being there are NO applications to
kata.]


Other Okinawan's still state "Here are the applications and you must
figure more out yourself." [Logical inference "I don't know anything
else", or perhaps, 'You're too unworthy to share with.']


Others show them on occasion, but consciously reserve them for their
senior students. [Logical inference in those cases you know you're
unworthy to share with].


Add, there are no open rules to govern, and the hints left from the
past seniors, are perhaps too obscure (or still in Japanese) for
others to draw upon them.


As I accept karate arose from non-verbal traditions, then the seniors
in those traditions were responsible to provide the map, or context
for those answers.


For most of us, those living maps don't exist. Now most on this list
are in a quite different state. You have seniors to guide those lines
of inquiry (should inquiry even be necessary).


With no rules, no guides, no law givers, it there is no reason to
expect any logical answers will arise.


Frankly there are infinite potential uses for any movement. That
infinity of potential can lead to the babble complex, leading one to
believe good karate demands you dig out every potential for every
student. On the other hand I suspect it demands the Seniors should
be the ones dipping into that well, but not using their studies do
drown their students in a Tsunami.


In my humble case, I've been left with no rules, no rule giver, too
many friends who've shared to much of their own studies, and only my
own plodding logic to try and make sense of all of this.


That, in part, is what possessed me to begin my attempt to define
kata (from my own perspective of course).


Now the world being commercial, it is obvious, those who are willing
to sell anything, with the right advertising (and underlying
psychological premises) will draw the rest who likewise have nothing
to start from.


Then there are many who get enamored with other study and want to
overlay it with their art. One of the systems I trained it, the
seniors over the past 6o years, did just that, melded Shotokan,
Aikido, Tjimande and Kobudo, into forming a composite (hidden Jutsu)
system. The resulting art is extremely interesting, it just isn't
karate, in an Okinawan framework.


I don't have better answers at this time, so I guess I'll just go off
and howl.  Victor

 

From:  Fred Lohse
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:17 am
Subject:  Re: Howling to the moon


As usual, thought provoking! Your point about changing or "upgrading"
karate is really spot on. In the US, I think one reason that that behavior
was so common was that the art that was popularized here was first taught
by students with at the most 3 years experience- the "upgrade" was needed.
In Okinawa there is not so much emphasis on this type of "upgrading"
(though there is an emphasis on practicing some bunkai for all the
classical kata in the two schools I am most familiar with- shoreikan and
shodokan). I personally think this need came from Japan as well. Funakoshi
didn't teach some of the levels of his art, and even if he had, the
Japanese were very interested in making the art Japanese. To do so, it had
to conform to the standards for a "real Budo"- include joint manipulation
techniques, have a progression of such techniques and a way to do them
paired, and so on. A primarily striking art with a good dal of solo
practice was not "real budo" enough, so it needed the upgrade, as it were.
One other avenue of examination might be traditions that focus on solo
kata- Chinese and Indonesian forms, for example. My experience here is
limited. From what I know, their practice is often very similar to that of
karate- lots of form practice, simple paired sets and paired drills working
on principals of motion and sensitivity, and some examination of the
techniques in the forms. I do know some Chinese forms use full-length
paired sets for their forms, but I do not think this is common, and cannot
cite which styles. (Toguchi supposedly got his ideas from hearing about
this.)


And as for kata hiding ANYTHING from spies, I find this absurd as well.
The concept that techniques are changed in kata so that they cannot be
stolen is crazy- if you don't want people to see your kata, do it behind
closed doors. It is simple enough to demonstrate only very basic forms, or
a prepared demo form instead of the meat of the style, if you need to
demonstrate. I just can't see there being any need for hiding technique in
the forms themselves, particularly as it could word against really learning
the skills taught.


Anyway, thanks for the post!

cheers,

Fred


 
From Gojute
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:56 am
Subject:  Re:  Howling to the moon


Arrrooooooooooooouuuuu!!!
      I tried to howl but it came out looking like something out of Tigger and Pooh  :)

Hello,


      The reason many practice without the historic view is because they trust what they were told and have not investigated for themselves. They place too much trust that their instructors have given them the total knowledge. Only those with a deep interest and the spirit within them ever check further. I do not think this is any different from the past ways.


      Secondly, they do not stay with their system long enough, due to a lack of patience, to discover its true depths. Or if they do, they find the weakness of an incomplete art due to a lack of knowledge passed on from the past.


      People needed to be taught how to teach and pass on the complete info not just for the individual. BUt this was the way of the times.... the dark ages.


      As for conduct codes and a code of techniques lacking in karate.... I think the best answer is to look at the development of fencing. In looking at its past we see karate. Look at fencings development:


(Paraphrased plus, from "The Inner Game of Fencing" by Eric Evangelista)
 
1.combat techniques derived from watching animals, hormones and raw emotion, with the equivalent of modern "duking it out".
2.Rome organization in gladiators and the legions. The demise of Rome led to a structure loss.

3.THe dark ages and medieval times we see the resurgence of #1 and #2 but to a lesser degreeof #2. Knight were primarily offensive and the lower classes fought dirty with tripping and groin kicks and punches were added.

4.THe Renaissance brought about thinking and efficient blade movement. Gun Powder made it obsolete and a conscious and deliberate decision was made to move away from earlier rough and tumble methods.

5.The printing press spead and established new fencing method.

6. Two handed and single handed sword play had its day. Brute force moved away and science and logic took over. Ideas were blended, broken, and created.

7. 14th century German guilds helped solidify concepts.

8. 15th century, the thrusting rapierdramatically changed thought. Circular disappeared and linear thought took over. THe Spanish developed a method based on geometry and philosophy and took it to England armed with the rapier and took the fencing knowledge crown from England.

9.17th century the french took reason and order and produced a system of point play. THe weapon was refined and increased speedbrought refinement on both offensive and defensive techniques. Thought shifted from msrtial art to sport due to the peaceful times.

10.18th century, Fencing became a discipline, a self-awareness developer,used to enhance physical well being, promote logical thinking, and vent competative aggression.

11.19th century, 3 forms took shape: foil,epee, and sabre. Safety started to be an issue wit the invention of the fencing mask.

12. 20th century, a yearning for traditional values, egocentric and noble ways. THe sport of "touch" which was weakening the art, and the classical knowledge that completed the person.....conflict between the two. THe sport for youth, and when one reached the end of that knowledge of the futility,fthen the return to the classical knowledge and nobility that developed the person into the thinking fighter, not just the   making of the touch.


      We see the cycles repeating till unity occured within the art in concept, thought, and technique.


      Now compare this to the development of Judo, Kendo, and Karate.... but dont forget the interruption of the war and defeat of Japan. Karate never got to the completeness of thought because of the lack of unity. Until the arts do unify in their knowledge, it cannot continue to its fullest.


      As for kata and bunkai.... I see a great truth here. Fernando once told me that all Sanchin is now looked at was not what it was intended. I have reseached and found this to be true IMO. THe basic punch, posture, breathing, and a concept or two were all.


      But it did change!... more was added, each teacher adding a little knowledge or interpretation. It is no longer the same. But the old knowledge should not be lost... neither should the new knowledge be ignored.


      I see the wisdom of Miyagi in defining Sanchin, Tensho, and Naihachin as the basics. These need to be completed in their development and understanding as applys to the new knowledge gained from them.


      The rest of the kata....bore the knowledge of the past but had inherent weaknesses which required the need of the other kata from the other systems. THese held the secrets ofself-defense from different concepts.


      These concepts must be understood...... THen they must be viewed in terms of techniques and the kata. Not only for sepecifics, but for the complete knowledge contained from each. THen they need placed in a method that connects and completes them.


      This answers the  "why" of the question of why so many styles seek the knowledge from other styles mixing them to add within their art nowdays. Till the concepts are understood and faced and unified..... our art will not develop.... if any thing it runs the risk of fading as the past as sword info did in Rome.


      It will complete though, wheter under our quidance or at a future time.


      Completeing this will lead to the code of concepts, code of conduct, code of technique, code of purposes.........that should be within our art.


Seems we each have a madhouse.... now back to mine also....I may join Fernando for tea at his.

 Ron


From:  Fred Lohse
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:57 am
Subject:  Re: : Howling to the moon


Hey Victor, Fernando-


interesting posts. Victor, I think in some ways you speak driectly to what
I was talking about. Your first few comments ring very true. My experience
on Okinawa and in Sakai's dojo was that bunkai was an essential part of
training. However, it was something that was not really gotten into until
the student was, to use one measure, over sho-dan level- usually after 3-4+
years of training. Up till then, the student did lots of kata, basic (and
more complex) paired drills, but paired drills that were essentially
isolated techniques, or very basic (pnunch/block) bunkai for simple kata
like Gekisai. But after that point, while the emphasis on kata was
retained, to this was married a study in the meanings of classical kata.
This was not exaustive. The usual comment was, as you point out, "there are
other meanings, and you should explore them, but here are some starting
points". Interestingly enough, I also heard "if you master the principals
of Goju, the meanings become more obvious, so keep going back to the kata,
don't spend all your time on bunkai" (and most flattering to my ego "if you
come up with a really good one, show us").



The idea seemed to be not a question of worthyness, but one of
experience- you weren't ready to clutter your mind until you had some time
under your belt, and a good mastery of basic movement and principals. These
are taught by kata, kata, more kata, and some paired drills. Adding Mario's
comments about how Kyoda taught, giving hints but making students find the
meanings themselves (however, maintaining veto power, giving me a sense he
was directing this search more than the students realized), and that his
students have been more explicit with Mario about bunkai, working
techniques with him directly, I see a many-tiered situation.


The kata form the core, and allow entry. Basic techniques accompany this
study. Once basics are covered, the student can continue to explore kata by
examining the more in-depth meanings. This, in turn, modifies the practice
of kata- how many of us have seen a kata performed differently based on how
the performer is thinking of the techniques in it? Subtle changes take
place, and usually for the better, as the kata moves into a different
abstract realm. The dance becomes more focused, as it were. This then
returns to application and so on. In one sense, you could consider
application as a tool to better refine the kata, and the principals of
energy development, motion, and delivery contained in it. This needs to be
monitored however, so that the bunkai does not get too wild, and change the
kata much.


That is one reason I see bunkai study as essential, but not central, if
you know what I mean. It is, as Fernando pointed out, easy to get lost in a
bunkai malestrom, working on more and more techniques, treating the kata
like a reference book instead of a course of study. However, if the kata
have no meanings, it is easy to do them in many different ways, sometimes
odd and at odds with the principals of the style. In Higa's, Sakai's,
Toguchi's and Kimo's dojo, once in the ni dan and up range we did fairly
simple paired sets for the classical forms- techniques working through the
various movements in the kata. All averaged 5-10 techniques per kata. None
of the sets covered all the kata movements, especially as there are so many
ways to break them down. None were set in stone- they changed periodically,
albiet very slowly- in years not months. All were accompanied by the caveat
"you must keep exploring beyond this", and all were much more detailed than
anything covered before, including kyusho, kuzushi, and many other core
principals of the system.


I look at them as a tool to progress- they help shape kata development,
enabling the mastery of principals that can get translated into spontaneous
movement.


As for other study, I think that people get enamoured of it because it can
form what appears to be a short cut- a way to quickly get to techniques
that need time to get enough mastery of the basics to work on. This, in my
mind, becomes a cheat because it removes these techniques from the
principals of the style, using the basics of another set of principals
instead. You get a mish-mash of techniques that lack a core, even if they
all could have come from the original style They were approached from
different angles, as it were, and unifying them is very difficult.
Occasionally it works, occasionally a new art is created, and usually you
get something that is disjointed and unweildy.



Anyway, this is long. Thanks for listening to my howling.



cheers,

Fred

 

From:  taylorrg  
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  12:18 pm
Subject:  howling

Greetings - Had to add my voice to the howling , but, like most things
I have a opinion about this and why it is.


In essence Karate is a civil art, and as such it shaped by the
civil and ethical laws of the culture we live in.


A martial art has a much simpler code, it is not encumbered by
culture , so it is easier to also focus the practice of a
martial art on the physical, this is where it is played out
and it is really shaped by the military culture which has
its own goal ,not the civil culture which has a different goal
or the individual who my have another. In essence there are
less levels to a martial art, ya just break stuff and kill, not so
in a civil art, this may or may not be the goal.


I am frequently reminded that karate is more than a physical discipline
it is a mental discipline that can develop a particular frame of mind.
practice of drills and bunkai work the physical, and are level specific
we are responsible for the outcome, they deal with the here and now,
the practical, but also the future outcome and responsibilities for these
actions.


Kata can be practiced from a martial perspective , but,
I also believe kata practice can go beyond this, it is a BEING
practice that not only has physical, and mental roots, but is
directly related to cultural and spiritual beliefs.


When karate is imported to a new country, its looses much of these
cultural and spiritual foundations, the code you seek in the kata
was really to be found in the total cultural experience.


When karate was taken to Japan it was uprooted, the physical
shell was transplanted but, to give it depth and meaning the
Japanese culture needed to be worked into it, the same is true
of America, I can study Okinawan Culture all I want, I can
know what it is in my head, but if its not my actual belief
system, if I don't live it and believe it , my karate code will
be different regardless, it will follow my beliefs, my culture and
be slanted toward what this culture expects of it and thinks it
should be.


looking at the physical forms, we also loose the translation for
some techniques, what about movement designed against the topknot
or movement designed to take advantage of baggy sleeve etc, or
belts, or the things we might actually be carrying and have in
our possession, what happens when we disassociate these movements
from their culture, what do they translate into ?


When I practice kata I can use it for moving meditation developing
a frame of mind , breathing and working on circulation of energy etc.
This type of practice must be done often, and sometimes solitude is best.
On a less frequent bases we must interact and learn the physical
application, but, in the end its the mind that is more important.


My opinion is karate is a way of being, as well as a way of moving,
Since we have diverse cultural and worldly experiences and beliefs
our beings are very different, we can share the kata movement ,
but, our code, what we live by, what is a part of us, our values
, ethics, spiritual beliefs, (moral culture ) will differ by culture,
it has to, we can not go back and live as they did in 1800 Okinawa,
we can not believe what they believed, no matter how hard we try.
This mean the applications my also very because of what we believe .


So I guess my reply is the code of karate are found in the culture
we live in, and many applications will be based in our culture.


nice r.t.^..^ Romney

 

From:  FPC
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:39 pm
Subject:  Re: howling to the moon


Yes, there was code of techniques and conduct in the original karate. To get
some idea about these codes of conduct take a look in the Funakoshi's bio and
some stuff found in Karate Kyohan. Vestiges only.


These codes are the difference between men like Matsumura, Itosu, Higashionna,
Funakoshi, Miyagi and Mabuni, and rufians that can be better fighters them, but
not better karateka.


These codes of conduct are not military codes, and most of them are not
conditioned by the local culture. These codes cover a large spectrum of conduct
as, for example, how you must nourish and dress in cold or hot weather; how you
must behaviour and walk in dangerous places; how you must behaviour in foreign
places with the local women; how you must arrange the room where you sleep;
what you must to train, why and how; etc. Codes of techniques are associated
to some strategic kata, the most old (the Tode protoype) being Seisan, a pocket
treatise about Tode-jutsu. Sanchin is part of this code with a specific
purpose, etc. If we know how Seisan was trained and its moves used, how and why
Sanchin was prescribed to beginners, we will have the essential to decipher the
others classical kata of a lineage.


If we don't know the specific purposes of what we are doing, we will haven't
motivation to continue and absorve the art as part of our lives/souls. As
Thomas Aquinus said: the knowledge should be as a food that we eat and it
became part of our bodies. Knowledge without participation it is not knowledge,
but mere intelectualization.


All art, including karate, has a high purpose in complete the human figure to
its most perfect form. "Quod natura relinquint imperfectum, Ars perficit".


The problem was that karate became bastardized when peasants, seeing that they
could get much money teaching karate than in the farm work, became instant
"masters". They learns imperfectly and without substance, and they passed on
kata imperfectly and also created ineffective kata that today are taught as
"treasures".


I think that we can only evaluate the greatness of men like Miyagi, Mabuni,
Funakoshi or their masters, when we understand their search on the kata moves.


Fernando
 


From:  Swift Joe
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  8:54 pm
Subject:  Kyoda Precepts


The Teachings of Kyoda Juhatsu by Murakami Katsumi
"Karatedo to Ryukyu Kobudo" pp. 15

The following training precepts of Karatedo were taught to
me by Kyoda Juhatsu Sensei.

- Build a healthy body
- Cultivate a strong spirit
- Honour harmony
- Avoid fighting and condemn violence

I make it a habit to recite these precepts before my own
training.
 
Joe

 

From:  Travis Cottreau
Date:  Tue Feb 12, 2002  9:11 pm
Subject:  Re: Re: Howling to the Moon


Victor,


I love your short essay, which your posting definitely is. You've quite
clearly summed up the bad situations with bunkai in the karate world.


After seeing lots of crap out there (during the hour of the rat, hit this
nerve under the right point of the elbow, quickly followed by a jab to the
left kidney and he's out like a light), and some of the better things out
there (I count some of my instruction at home as some of that, mostly clean
application), I am pretty much of the mind that no one really had bunkai in
old Okinawa. Not as we see it anyway. I think that we have mostly a situation
where we are imposing our modern opinion of what is correct onto the past in
Okinawa. Our cultures are completely different, there's no reason why our
thought on bunkai must be the same. They might look at modern bunkai and
laugh. I know that I do on occasion.


I've read various translations of material by Chitose and Mabuni as well
as more modern stuff by George Mattson. I really don't think that the kata
was supposed to have application. Chitose says that "the old teachers didn't
show us the meaning of kata, we had to learn it for ourselves through
diligent study" or something similar to that. If you look at Chitose's
applications and arm locks and throws, they are most likely taken from his
experience in Judo (5th dan kodokan judo). He had experience in many martial
arts, armed and unarmed, not just karate. He didn't feel restricted to limit
his style to just karate, but put many things in there. He wasn't interested
in preserving pure Okinawan karate, he was interested in a better martial
art. At the same time, he wasn't interested in throwing karate away - in
fact, since he was a master from Okinawa, probably anything he did qualified
as koryu karate. The same goes for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Miyagi and a score of
other masters. I don't want to come across as a Chitose worshiper here.


Still, my opinion is that you're going to miss a lot of the application
strategy that Chitose intended by just learning in Chito-ryu karate class,
after all, it isn't Chitose teaching you now, it's a many generations removed
student of Chitose - how good is his bunkai, how good are his instructors?
You pretty much have to go and train with judoka or in aikido or jujitsu
classes. That's where most of the masters out there got their bunkai anyway,
it isn't from koryu karate. If it is, you'd never know anyway.


By the way, I love your quote: Now the world being commercial, it is
obvious, those who are willing to sell anything, with the right advertising
(and underlying psychological premises) will draw the rest who likewise have
nothing to start from.


Too true, too true. I feel bad for the world where people will put aside
their good sense and pay money for something just because they don't have any
of it. It's like wandering a street starving and having someone yelling
"table scraps, table scraps, get your egg shells and potato peels!" and
buying what he's selling instead of looking around and finding a restaurant
to spend your money in.


Like you, I don't have answers either, but I hope that I can cling to my
good sense.


Travis.