So we are told that the Quan Fa came from Shaolin and Fujian province, and many of the forms from Dog Boxing, Monk Fist, Black Tiger and Crane formed the basis for many kata in the three mainline toudi traditions.
But what of kata that the okinawans invented themselves? That came from native te, or possibly from Qin Na, before Kempo was routinely taught by Chinese sailors, settlers and diplomatic missions?
Can anyone classify kata that were invented on Okinawa before the introduction of Kempo, and are the bunkai known for these?
Did the bunkai come from te gumi drills?
I know that Rinkan was Nakasone's (Tomari) personal kata, I assume that Kokan was invented by Kokan Oyadomari, I know Su unsu was invented by Shimbakuro Tatsuo.
I assume that Annanko was invented by Annan. Chinpe Chinsu, Juma and Uenibu were said to be lost katas, but all five were revived after Choto Kyan did some research in Taiwan.
Although I am only searching on the net, I have found only one source that points to a Chinese origin of Unsu, and it claims it to be a dragon system form.
Does anyone know? Joe
Joe,
Good questions, unfortunately it is very difficult to get solid answers as the past simply wasn't documented. The first texts on Karate were published in Japan (Funakoshi in Japan 1922,1925, Mutsu 1933, Mabuni 1934/1934 and so on). They described the training of their day, but only oral history has any real links (that I've seen).
To give you an idea how difficult this is, let's look at your question on Unsu.
The Pai Lum system (Daniel Pai's White Dragon) system has a form which is a very close clone of Unsu. Pai was from Hawaii, and his system seems to be a bridge of various Chinese systems. [I don't study Pai Lum, and am going on Oral history from trusted sources.] Their Unsu similar form (I believe called Prance of the Panther) could be used for speculation as a Chinese source of Okinawan kata.
But Karate was demonstrated in the past on Hawaii (including the Okinawan population there) from visits of various Okinawan Karateka. It is not impossible to imagine someone watched the form during several demonstrations, and simply memorized the movements and then incorporated the form into the Pai Lum system.
Now I'm not saying that is the case, but it is a possibility.
With 28 years young into my own training, I find it far more important to know what you can do with what you have, as opposed to finding older versions. I guarantee you can do everything you need without doing that.
The rest is work.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Pai Lum Kung Fu was created by Dr. Daniel Kane Pai. The Pai Lum curriculum has never been static and has been redefined by successive students. The original curriculum of Pai Lum was Goju Ryu Karate.
The first Chinese martial arts forms that were taught within Pai Lum Kung Fu were Praying Mantis forms from Manuel Agrella’s Jook Lum Tong Leong Pai. These were taught to Thomas D. St. Charles, Peter Genero, and Charlie Hatchett who then taught them to the rest of the students. Lee Chun Pai, a friend and student of Dr. Pai, introduced the Hung Gar forms into Pai Lum. (pakmei.net)
A subsystem of Pai Lum Kung Fu is Bok Leen Pai (White Lotus System). It is also called White Lotus Kenpo which gives hints of its true origin. Contrary to popular belief, Bok Leen Pai was not developed or taught in the “White Lotus Monastery” in Okinawa. The history and personages of Karate in Okinawa are well documented. Curiously enough one is hard pressed to find an actual White Lotus Monastery or Okinawan Karate teacher who would have been able to teach the American/Tracy Kenpo techniques before they were invented.
I hope this helps! [This message has been edited by AnDruidh (edited 03-03-2005).]
I'm afraid AnDruidh the history I've heard about the Pai Lum teachings varies quite a bit from yours.
Pai Lum Kung Fu was either a Pai family system or created by Daniel Pai. I know of no way to verify either point of view independently.
As to its course content varying, likely the truth. I've seen several different flavors of Pai Lum, some very closely linked to Chinese systems, and some that appear to be karateka doing kung fu, IMO. I'm quite curious where the statement the original source of Pai Lum was Goju Karate arises. Of course they do have a tension form that is very similar to Goju Tensho, yet also quite different, different breathing patterns, etc.
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As to Manuel Agrella's being a source of Pai Lum material I highly doubt that. I know at one time he did live in Conn. and there may have been some interaction between the parties you mention. But I find no similarity.
For years I competed on the circuit against Mr. Agrella's people. Their material was absolutely nothing like the Pai Lum material. Agrella Sifu claimed to be a student at one time of Mas Oyama, in my presence. Then again I found nothing similar to the Chinese Mantis systems present in his student's forms either.
But China is large and I'm sure I haven't seen all there is by any means.
But Agrella Sifu's people were hard, fast and very skilled at what they did. It's just I personally can't reconcile their art with any of the various Chinese systems I've seen.Also as I heard it, it was Pai who taught the Tracy brothers their self defense techniques.
The entire impact of Pai's teaching is difficult to assess. In the 60's and 70's he was a presence on the East Coast.
But thank you for mentioning Agrella Sifu. I had not thought of him and his art in several decades.
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Dear Mr. Smith,
I had written you a reply a couple of days ago but it seems to not have gone through for some reason. I will attempt to post something again.
I interviewed GM Kalaii Griffin, Master Robert Schoolnick, and GM Manuel Agrella. Please do contact them if you have any questions as to the validity of the information they supplied. Each of them were independently interviewed and without foreknowledge of verifying or contradicting the other’s version. The information that was supplied to me was through phone call or in person.
GM Pai appointed GM Agrella as the Vice President and 7th Duan of his system at Pai Lum’s inception. The first person to receive the Bai Shi from GM Pai was Kalaii Griffin. This took place in GM Agrella’s home over oysters and pasta. This information was supplied to me by GM Agrella and verified by GM Griffin who added that he presented GM Pai with a white envelope (not the usual red) and while reminiscing about the event, added that the stove had been broken some how that night. Mr. Griffin was given the name Kalaii by GM Pai and given the name of Iron Dragon by GM Agrella. This was confirmed by each of them. This was while both GM’s Pai and Agrella were in Hartford Connecticut.
Both also stated that the curriculum taught during those days was Goju Ryu Karate. Another individual present during those times was Pai Lum, Master Robert Schoolick. He too independently corroborated the fact that they learned Goju Ryu Karate in the early days. He stated that GM Pai had gotten “Praying Mantis” forms somehow but he didn’t know where they came from. GM Agrella had already told me that he taught Bamboo Forest Praying Mantis forms to Thomas D. St. Charles, Peter Genero, and Charlie Hatchet who in turn taught them to the rest of the students. Master Schoolick also stated that GM Pai sought out other Chinese forms to add to the curriculum. This too was verified by Lee Chun Pai on his website http://www.pakmei.net.
Master Schoolnick stated that the Pai Lum Kung Fu folks no longer do these original Goju or Mantis katas/forms.
GM Agrella never studied what is now known as Pai Lum Kung Fu. (The oddly placed kenjutsu found in the Chinese Kung Fu system known as Pai Lum does come from him however.) Also GM Agrella does not teach the popular 7 Star Praying Mantis system. GM Cheng Peng Weing who had been a student of several Praying Mantis systems immigrated to the United States in 1962. GM Weing then taught GM Agrella and left him as sole heir. GM Agrella teaches GM Weing's system of Praying Mantis which as you have stated looks nothing like the usual 7 Star Praying Mantis. GM Weing converted him from Kyukushin to Praying Mantis after GM Weing had thrown him to the floor with ease.
There are essentially two different systems. The first system is commonly known Pai Lum Kung Fu replete with its Hung Gar influence and forms/sets from multiple sources. There is a more elusive “Pai Family System” but many today do not know much of the latter and call the former inadvertently by the same moniker.
Dr. Pai learned the Pai Family System (for a lack of a better term) from his grandfather Pai Po Feng. Pai Po Feng was a practitioner of a Dragon style. No one really knows which one but at this time it is irrelevant. No one in the Pai Lum Kung Fu system is claiming to practice this exact style anyway and for good reason. Dr. Pai never learned this exact Dragon style and didn’t need to. The “Secret Pai Family System” as Master Schoolnick called it, displays none of the characteristics of the Pai Lum Kung Fu system.
This system is completely based upon the I Ching. This system enables one to understand and catalog all internal/external motion. Therefore, this understanding is not constrained or taught through sets/forms but can be used as the DNA to develop any system. This is how it could be passed from teacher to student and manifested as a completely new and different Martial Arts system. Master Schoolnick, who is no fan of GM Denis Decker, stated emphatically that GM Pai taught this to GM Decker before he left the Pai Lum family . He stated that a “great wealth of knowledge left Pai Lum and went with him that day.” GM Denis Decker went onto to develop the Chi Lin System(s). GM Agrella stated that he too learned this system from GM Pai although he never gave it a name. Both GM Agrella and Master Schoolnick offered this information independently, inadvertently corroborating each other’s story of a Secret Pai Family System.
I have visited GM Agrella's home and have seen his various certificates from GM Pai, Oyama, GM Hung, GM Weing and others.
I hope this clears any confusion and opens this up to more research.
Sincerely,
AnDruidh
Hi AnDruidh,
Thank you for your very detailed reply, it is very interesting.
Though I am a friend and student of Ernest Rothrock who is a Master Instructor of Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (Northern Eagle Claw), and have a slight familiarity of the Pai Lum he used to teach, I am not involved with any of the Pai Lum groups.
My own studies are confined to Yang Tai Chi Chaun and various studies in a variety of Mr. Rothrock’s systems of study, originally to become a fairer judge of Chinese stylists. I’d like to think I succeeded in that a little. But little did I know they would change my understanding of karate in the process.
Decades ago I observed great differences between the Pai Lum of Mr. Rothrock and that of another group from Eastern Pennsylvania (I believe the group used the name Weiniger or something like that).
At that time Mr. Rothrock was teaching Pai Lum (and Yang tai chi chaun) and intensely studying Eagle Claw and Wu tai chi chaun, but it would be decades before his studies led him to begin teaching that art. His choice was based on wanting to know as much about the system as possible before becoming an instructor. His designation Master Instructor is the result of a very complex test on his performance of the system by his instructor, Shum Leung Sifu. He also has a very vast study of other Chinese systems such as Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin)and Tai Tong Long (Northern Mantis), that he undertook over the years.
The differences between Mr. Rothrock’s Pai Lum and the Weinger group Pai Lum were so great it was difficult to reconcile they were the same system. But Pai Lum was no longer prevalent in the Pennsylvania, Maryland and New Jersey tournaments in the late 70’s through mid 80’s that I attended, and I never happened to see much of it for other comparison.
As the early years of Mr. Pai’s teaching were before my time I accept your points, but had never heard that Goju was associated with Pai from Mr. Rothrock’s stories from his origins. I’m unsure where his timeline began on the Mr. Pai’s teaching in the States. I started training with him in 1978 and his time with Mr. Pai was before my time with him. I am aware of the other names you’ve mentioned.
Mr. Agrella’s people were incredibly strong open tournament competitors. I remember one of his ‘sons’ tying 5 times with Cindy Rothrock, each time them using different weapons trying to break that tie, as well as extremely strong fighters.
But as I had come to see Northern Mantis, I never saw any of the mantis hand techniques present. I am aware that Southern Mantis tradition is very different, and don’t doubt there is much more than I have ever observed. It’s just I have never seen any Chinese groups traditions to date that were similar to Mr. Agrella’s. At the time I was competing I had less knowledge about the Chinese systems and my observations are based on what I’ve seen.
I was aware Mr. Agrella used to live in Connecticut and that Mr. Pai had lived there too, so your explanation that they were linked is reasonable to me.
Mr. Rothrock moved on from his Pai Lum teachings into a vastly different system over the years and rarely discussed the old days. Most of our time together has been training and in technique and overall system study and analysis. There is not a great deal of outside information so what you’ve offered is greatly appreciated. It helps me understand how some of the arts I’ve seen interacted.
Of course my interest is purely selfish. I only want to know what others do to help prepare my students to face them. I’ve been in New Hampshire these past 20 years and except for regular visits with Mr. Rothrock haven’t seen the rest in a very long time.
Pleasantly, Victor Smith
Dear Mr. Smith,
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I too see a clear difference between what GM S.L. Martin does and what GM Agrella does. I was priviledged to study under both at one point. In fact at my instructor level test I was named Shen Pao Sheng by them.
As far as my research goes his art is a combination of 7 Star, Chu Ga (a Jook Lum system) and Shining Board Praying Mantis systems. He has told me that his style is unique and wanted to (re)name it "Black Mantis" years ago. This is not its public name, however several other Pai members and I do call his art Black Mantis. The esoteric foundation of his system is the I Ching material as I have discussed in the previous posts. To date none of his students have learned this level because of a number of factors.
I had a video of Ernie and Cynthia Rothrock but haven't seen it in a while. I probably lent it out to one of my students. Life is like that. I would love to see their version of Pai Lum because what I did see of it on tape was stunning. Mr. Wenninger's Pai Lum is very different than what I saw on this video.
I would say that many of the various groups would argue that theirs is the better or a more authentic system of Pai Lum. In fact I have heard such arguments. What they don't know is that none of that matters because the understanding of motion of body and mind is what counts. How many or what forms practiced, or how soft/hard they seem to be is not what is paramount. So I see them as all being vital, beautifully unique, yet snap shots of teachings Pai Lum. A pictures is just still frame of movement that has occurred in a specific time and place. Pai Lum and the teachings which are at its base are not bound by time or space and are not the snap shots.
What I posted is not what has been offered for general consumption but it is factual. Not everyone likes the facts but I think what I offered is more interesting and intriguing than the stories I have heard regurgitated a thousand times. What irks me is that they do this without verification or corroboration by independent sources.
Thank you for taking the time to read my posts as well as replying in kind.
Sincerely,
"AnDruidh"
Shen Pao Sheng
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