Brief Reply to Armbar

 Back in 2002 I had posted my thoughts of use of Seisan kata technique as an armbar, this was on my Isshinryu Yahoo Group. I found Greg's response quite interesting.

From:  "Gregory F. Jones
Subject:  Brief Reply to Armbar   
Date:  Sun, 12 May 2002 07:52:17 -0400   



Victor,


 In response to the armbar study - specifically focusing on Seisan:


1st listed technique (beginning of Seisan kata)


 1. You mention turn 20 degrees.  My ju-jitsu instructor has mentioned, on occasion that people can cope with 90 and 45 but they tend to have trouble with 22.5 because they don't really perceive such a small change in direction as a threat.  He usually brings this up with throws but the similarity of comment is notable, IMO.


2. Your description of rolling the right arm round Uki's arm after the punch to the solar plexus is intereseting.  It isn't 'pure' kata, I take it.  In my brief visits to Mike Garner's dojo, he or his students have mentioned several ways to walk through the kata . . . one way trying to derive 'pure' technique - doing only the moves in the kata with extremely minor variations (punching the shoulder instead of the solar plexus perhaps) vs. going through and taking each technique to a 'natural conclusion' - normally meaning a take-down or otherwise neutralizing the opponent.  The latter goes against the grain of pure Harold Long - a man of 3 techniques or less - but adds a deeper level of sophistication IMO.


 In any event, reading through your study, the techniques read, to me, as a split between the 2 types of bunkai study I just mentioned.  On this 1st technique . . . it seems the former.  Others indicate the latter.


2nd listed technique


1. Under Mr. Longs' version of the kata, there is a double-head-block and then a movement to an x-block before the turn.  Thus I interpret your description to mean that the left hand of the x-block is 'snaked' into place - a softer entry than standard Harold Long.  This would allow for the wrist grab, though, as well as completion of the technique as you describe with one interesting change.


2. With our turn, we pivot on the left foot.  Reading through your description of the arm-bar application and fitting this with my current ju-jitsu studies, I can see turning perhaps 90 degrees but spinning further would appear to have me in a position of trying to turn the Uki while on one foot.  Pivoting on the right foot . . . well . . . the right foot is the back foot and that appears a weak thing to do given that positioning.
 

Perhaps a 45 under those circumstances if Uki is moving forward.  Under either circumstance, I could see _eventually_ getting to the 180 position but not without an interim.  If such is the case, then it again becomes a question of how purely you intend to interpret the kata.


2nd 'part' of Seisan


1. Mr. Long always taught the katas in "parts".  Part 2 consisted of the 1st turn and the walk down that 2nd line . . . ending at the 1st stack.  For lack of a better term right this second, I'll call the basic movement a 'windmill' technique that the Tori uses during that little walk down the line.  I see an armbar there.

Uki throughts right hand punch, RFF

Tori brings arms together in the 'windmill', 1st deflecting the technique with the left hand and then hooking it with the back of the right.

The right hand then flips over (strike optional) grabbing the Uki's wrist and pulling Uki in.


In the pure 'kata', the Tori's left hand then does a 'groin strike' to an opponent behind him.  If we are getting away from 'pure' kata, Tori has a beautiful setup to turn (the 20 or 22.5 degrees) into Uki and use that left hand/arm to armbar.


Again, I don't know what rules you are using in terms if interpretation.  If you are a purist with the techniques, what I'm visualizing implies that you do your kata differently in those areas.  As you have pointed out in your own comments to the lists, that isn't meant to be a value-judgement of which is better.  It is only offered to illustrate areas of fuzziness which can lead to miscommunication.


Just a few thoughts.  This is the sort of direction I'm trying to head in. Unfortunately, my conversations with you are likely to be as  one-sided as they are with my ju-jitsu instructor . . . 30 years of experience has a lot more to say than 10.  And the 30 tend to be a lot more interesting. :)


Greg