Mario McKenna (a senior Goju practioner) and Hank Prom (Shito Ryu) give their opinions on the differences between Goju and Shitoryu.
Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu) was a senior student of K. Hiagonna, and Kenwa Mabuni (founder of Shito Rye) was a friend of Miyagi who studied with K. Hiagonna at his friends suggestion. The kata of Miyagi were incorporated into the Shito Ryu curriculum (along with most of the other Okinawan kata).
Hank:
I'll try to explain what I am trying to convey. Goju Ryu or Naha based systems core concepts or principals include rooting, sinking, squeezing, power generation from a specific type of hip utilization, and other factors that make it recognizable as a Naha based system. If the way one steps and turns is different.
You keep sharing and pointing out "techniques" and kata that look the same physically in either pattern or actual technique. We are talking about two different things. Shito Ryu includes many Naha kata. Just in my opinion, Shito Ryu does not execute or perform those kata utilziing Naha principals and core concepts. There are Shito Ryu practitioners who perform beautiful kata that I respect the patterns are the same, the techniques are similiar; the execution regarding body dynamics, focal points, what is done during the focal points with the body, generation of power, how far the elbows are from the body, breath, etc. are very different, even in the examples you shared. There were many examples of different core concepts in the two kata you shared, even though the Goju Ryu example was a poor one in my opinion. Please look at this Shito Ryu Sanchin:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ce5P1HjetY
In comparison to Goju Ryu, the arms in Morote Chudan Yoko Uke (double middle body block) are significantly more vertical. In Goju Ryu, the arm position would be less vertical, the arms/wrists/fist would be rotated significantly more thumb side outward. The stance would be more sunken. The tanden would be rolled and set. When moving forward the step would be heavy and the foot would retain complete and full contact with the floor. In the Shito Ryu as demonstrated above, none of what I just described occcurs. The step is quick, the entire sole of the foot does not retain contact with the floor, etc. In short, none of the Naha core concepts or principals are contained within this performance. As such, it does not look like a Naha te performance. It looks like a person trained in a Shuri based system performing a Naha kata.
The pattern is the same, the techniques are the same, the performance in regards to what the system represents and teaches is very, very different.
I have not read or heard that Higaonna Sensei and Miyagi Sensei's karate were very different as you stated and I have personally interviewed four first generation students. Higaonna Sensei's breathing in the original open-hand Sanchin was much quicker; and was like blowing salt out of your hand with a quick burst. Higaonna Sensei utilized exceptional rooted stances as well as light tai sabaki and zuri ashi from what I have been told directly. Other than a very short stint with Aragaki Sensei, Miyagi Sensei's teacher and primary influence was Higaonna Sensei. He is also the student who trained the most with Higaonna Sensei, although Juhatsu Sensei was his senior.
Juhatsu Sensei (founder of To'un Ryu) trained with Higaonna Sensei also. I stated in my previous message that the Naha based styles including Ryuei Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu, and To'un Ryu share the same core principals and concepts. You shared and compared two kata, one from To'un Ryu and one from Shito Ryu and stated how does that look like Goju Ryu? It doesn't and it isn't a Goju Ryu kata and Goju Ryu has no kata that utilizes that physical pattern or techniques.
However, even in your examples, the "principals" of the two systems were clearly different. The hips, body dynamics, position of the limbs, method of some of the stepping regarding the center, all were similar to Naha core principals in the To'un Ryu example. I do not know how to help you see it. I mean no offense, but you seem to be sharing and speaking about the "surface" of the forms.
In my personal opinion, the Shuri influence in Shito Ryu is dominate and comes out in their performance of Naha kata. Again, I like and respect Shito Ryu and do not want anyone to think I feel differently. I have seen many impressive Shito Ryu performances and I had great respect for Hayashi Sensei. Sensei John Sells is a friend of mine and I have trained in some Kobudo with him. He is a big strong practitioner of Shito Ryu and even though he is a personal friend, all of his Naha kata look like a Shuri practitioner performing a Naha kata, in my opinion. No insult intended or implied. This is how I feel about every performance and example I have ever seen.
Hank, I think my opinion is offends you and that sincerely is not my intention at all. I simply do not feel that Shito Ryu practitioners performing Naha kata look like Naha practitioners and that's okay. They are still very skilled martial artist.
Cheers Steve Wilson 35 Years Okinawan Goju Ryu
Jim, et al:
Look at the video I included of Nishiyama guys learning from Nishiyama. Their front stance was weighted toward their rear leg.
I used to share a dojo at a health club with a Nishiyama club and they approved of such stances to the point where they put paintings on the wall of guys with their weight on their back legs.
Seishin kai and Tani ha folks do NOT have that back weighting that I object to. Neither do the Okinawan Shorin-ryu styles like Miyahira Katsuyas school where they do many of the same versions of Shorin kata as the Shotokan and Shito folk do.
Forward stance is supposed to be weighted on the front foot. It isn't a fighting stance, it is a stance that you are supposed to move into and out of.
And, yes, you will find a LOT of crappy shito-ryu practitioners around.
regards, Hank Prohm
Hank,
Thank you for the link to that class that Nishyama taught. I knew his ideas were a bit different than most, and that showed it pretty well. We have some fighting stances were the weight is equal, but that was weight in reverse! I would have to say it would raise and eye brow or two on my head and my instructors if he saw that. nishyama is a legoned in the JKA and Shotokan, but not exactly mainstream! Their is a reason he is not running the JKA right now. He is not exactly the same "style" of Shotokan. That is not putting him down, I am sure he is very good.
My group is more JKA like in its approach and I have trained with many Great instructors, from ones in Canada like Saeki Sensei and Dingman Sensei to JKA masters. I would have to guess that they have a reason in their mind as to what they are doing...just dont get it myself! To much focus on the kick and not enough on the stance?
Front Stance/Zenkutsu is used differently by different groups. We only use it for training then use a fighting stance that some call Kumite Dachi that is a high front stance with both legs equal weight and we pretty much use that to fight most of the time. We dont move in and out of Front stance and into Hesoku or something, that is a style bias and not one we share in our club. the "you are supposed to move in and out of" is more a style thing. I have met and trained with some guys that stay in Hangetsu or Sanchin Dachi while sparring, I liked the Sanchin Dachi guy...I always had better distance than him.
Truth be known, once you get to a high enough level of understanding you should not have a "stance" per see, but a fluid transition from one posture to another as you move in and out and around... Stances are for teaching and demonstration only. Asai sensei once wrote that you start with Basics, move to advanced Basics then once you have internalized them you forget them and move naturally...then you move back to basics. kensei_neiko
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