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Jan Blacha Why are the katas different from Shimabuku Tatsuo to Uzeu Angi to Tsuyoshi Uechi different? Was this due to Angi?
Jan Blacha You
are correct. I just wanted to addtesd the katas.
Christopher Matsumura Rozek Oh yeah. I am talking about the kata. Beyond
that.... even more differences.
Brian Esposito It may even go
back to Tatsuo Sensei, himself. I seem to remember reading that Tatsuo kept
improving/modifying the kata, so that what people brought back from studying
with him in later years, was different than his earlier students.
Robert Ramos yes i have gone
to diff dojos and each one tells me im doing kata wrong what is the right way?
I was told that we were doing kata the way A.U taught it
Bri-yan Koh-vax And that's the
fault of the instructor for not recognizing that the katas morphed. It's the
"my way is the only way" mentality, which I believe is the antithesis
of Isshinryu...
Jan Blacha I do them as
taught to me on the 1960s. But joined Uechi’s organization and see that they
are a bit different. No issues, I can do them both wąys..
Robert Ramos i understand
what your saying B -Y K-V but some of these guys were taught by some of the
early masters and say their way is the only way you cant tell someone with a
7th dan and above they arnt keeping up with the times they get vary upset
Robert Ramos yes i was asked to lead the clases in basics and i was taught to do them forward and backwards i was told vary
loudly that they dont back up or run if each dojo do things their way that
would mean that you could never be 100% if your lucky enough to stay with one
dojo for traininng life you will fine but for some reason you have to change
dojos one or a few times you will always do things diff from what you firvp
learned someone need to make all things standard io isshin ryu
Bri-yan Koh-vax Robert Ramos standardization
is next to impossible. There are so many associations and so many schools that
do things "their way" because they either don't know any other way or
don't care to know any other way. Don't let it bother you and just do your best
Christopher Matsumura Rozek
One thing I have said a few times in the past is the variations are, even
though frustrating, can shine new light on kata. Different ways to look at things
help you dig even deeper. My biggest issue, is when I see a technique added
that was never there. Kills me. lol
John Lemuel
Actually Uezu sensei did change the kata . Uechi sensei saw the 66 films of
soke and wanted to do the kata the original way. He then broke away and used
the films as a guide line . He now does kata pretty close but there are still a
few things he does differently . All of the original pioneers did kata very
close. Mitchum , long , Nagle , and Armstrong .
Craig Ross TS
changed the kata over his career in teaching for one reason of another. He used
to change the Kia points all the time. My Sensei who was one of his students
used to say the master used to tell people "Kia twice anyplace ok except
nihanchi". He used to evolve they kata as he saw it required it. Uezu
Sensei changed some parts of the kata but mostly just over emphasizing certain
subtle moves. I do not believe he added anything completely foreign to any kata
(citation needed?). Uechi Sensei learned from Uezu Sensei so that lineage is
there. When Uechi Sensei would teach me Siesan, he would show me a different ankle
break in the end from what my other Sensei taught. Both are correct just
slightly different. Same with most of the other kata.
Robert Ramos i was always told
that Master.T.S. Taught new katas to
Master A.U. ? And that is what i was
taught
John Lemuel Jan
asked a question.. I knew the answer and replied to help her out .. any changes
Uezu made on his own..
Mike Oliver @john how do we
know that?
ERozmin-Sensei Lakan Dalawa I am in agreement with Brian Esposito,
and would like to add that not everyone is the same physically and
intillectually,It is known that not only Tatsuo but many "Masters"
altered and modified thier carriculum based on a students particular attributes
and abilities. Also as a result of liniage interpretation and source variance
base lines with wide variation would develop, however I also believe Tatsuo
understood that there would be change and variation from his studies and
experiences. I believe that his famous quote " All Bottles are good"
refers to this. My Shihan has stated to me many times that he believes if
Tatsuo where still alive the Kata ( and Techniques) of Isshinryu would look
profoundly different. Tatsuo was an innovator years prior to ,but in the spirit
of , the famous Martial arts Innovators Including the likes of Bruce Lee and
others like him. Those who interpret and represent thier Isshinryu as the True
liniage, only way or the "True Way" in my opinion are not only wrong
but are not practicing in the spirit in which Tatsuo meant for Isshinryu to
exist.
John Aiello Because
Shimabuku taught each of his senior students to his strengths. He that Armstrong
things that he didnt teach Long, or Uezu,etc and vice versa
Sherman Harrill used to repeat something
at every clinic I attended with him. “What we have in
common is far more important than our differences” I believe that. And
he backed that up by taking whatever version you were using and showing you how
to better use it. We all can continue to learn something from that.
Romney Taylor Kata change
because the understanding of them changes.
Unless simply teaching movements , our (as a sensei) understanding
will influence the kata practice of our students.
Kata are where the differences in understanding manifest in
a noticeable form, the real differences are systemic throughout
the training program.
This is not new in any method or lineage.
Goju-ryu, and Shorin -Ryu have at least as
Many variations , and differences.
Romney Taylor To me if I bow
differently then someone else
as I begin the kata it is not a difference in kata.
These differences are window dressing,
symbols of organizations and leadership ,
The same as flags and standards of an army.
We need to look beyond these distractions to
See the difference in understanding, in strategy
And tactics.
Once we have analyzed the difference in understanding
manifest in the teachings of the various students of Tatsuo
Shimabuku, we will have a better understanding of what
was really being taught, and not just the perspective of
a students who often was only exposed to the direct teaching
of Tatsuo Shimabuku for a short period of time .
Can we really expect that all aspects of the system could
Be imparted in a short window of exposure?
I think we expect to much of most of these early students
and pride in our teachers and lineage
Etc make us stubborn , and thin skinned.
In the end or lineages many have different badges, banners, and
Pennants , but we are all under one flag, we should not forget this.
Joe Lembke Funny, This
question seems to come up periodically regarding differences in kata between
Master Shimabuku and Master Uezu and now master Uechi. I train in the Uezu
lineage as my instructors taught me, but I don't argue whats right and wrong, I
just enjoy training. My question is who taught Sensei Kichiro the kata? The
IWKA is a rather large organization and I have seen variations in the kata
within this group.
Victor Donald Smith One of the guys who trained with me and
Charles Murray attended Penn State and trained with the Isshinryu group there,
It seems each time Kichero Sensei would make his annual visit, he changed many
things, like the type of striking used and kata changes as well. He told them
his thinking was evolving. Of course this is second hand, but Dave David always
told it as he saw it.
Dan Jason Price In summary...
from above - I believe Shimabuku Tatsuo Soke understood there would be change
and variation from his studies and experiences. I believe that his famous quote
" All Bottles are good" refers to this. Some have stated many times
that he believes if TS where still alive the Kata ( Techniques) of Isshinryu
would look profoundly different. TS was an innovator years prior to ,but in the
spirit of , the famous Martial arts Innovators (Bruce Lee) and others like him.
Sherman Harrill used to repeat something at every clinic, “What we have in common is far more important than our
differences” I believe that. And he backed that up by taking whatever
version you were using and showing you how to better use it. We all can
continue to learn something from that.
I seem to remember reading that Tatsuo kept improving/modifying the kata, so
that what people brought back from studying with him in later years, was
different than his earlier students.
Standardization is next to impossible. There are so many associations and so
many schools that do things "their way" because they either don't
know any other way or don't care to know any other way. Do your best
Master A Uezu sensei did change the katas. Uechi sensei saw the 1966 film of
Soke and wanted to do the kata the original way, and then used the films as
guide lines . He now does kata pretty close, but there are still a few things
different. All of the original pioneers did kata very close to. Mitchum, Long ,
Nagle , and Armstrong .
In the end or lineages many have different badges, and banners, but we are all
under one flag, we should not forget this. It's the "my way is the only
way" mentality, which I believe is the antithesis of Isshinryu...
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