Abridged older discussion on Naifanchi Dachi

  

Andy Sloane

 

Tatsuo Sensei did not perform or teach Naihanchi with the knees in tight and the foot raise (nami gaeshi) low. In every video we have of him, he's shoulder-width apart and the foot comes up, at least, to the knee. The same can be said for his students.

 

Images of Tatsuo Sensei himself (1958 and 1966), Harold Long, Don Nagle, A.J. Advincula, Harold Mitchum, Clarence Ewing, and Angi Uezu (1967 and 1982) confirm what was, in fact, taught and performed by Tatsuo Shimabuku in Naihanchi kata.

 

 

 

 

  

Andy Sloane As what Tatsuo Sensei did and taught, the Tomari Naihanchi of the Iha Kotatsu lineage shows the feet shoulder-width apart and the foot raises to at least knee height on the nami gaeshi.

 

Andy Sloane The Tomari Naihanchi of the Motobu Choki lineage shows the feet shoulder-width apart but with the feet, essentially, straight forward. However, as with all the others, the foot raises to at least knee height on the nami gaeshi.

 

 

Andy Sloane The Tomari Naihanchi of the Uema Yasuhiro lineage shows the feet shoulder-width apart, heels [slightly] out/toes [slightly] in. The nami gaeshi is, again, at least knee height.

 

Raymond Dickey Every other Okinawan style I've seen uses shoulder-width stance for it as well.

 

Andy Sloane That's exactly one of my points.

 

Raymond Dickey I once discussed this aspect of the kata with Ryan Parker sensei, and this point came up. Isshinryu was the exception, I thought. But apparently it's just been taught incorrectly.

 

Andy Sloane Raymond Dickey Yep. Just taught incorrectly.

 

Victor Donald Smith Great effort Andy Sloane

Andy Sloane Preserving what Tatsuo Sensei taught is my duty, Sensei Smith.

 

Matthew Blair Stance used by Hanshi Duessel. I'm a Pittsburgh guy. His nami gaeshi was just above the knee

 John Kerker I never understood the severely pigeon toe stance

 

Matthew Blair Any ideas about how it crept into Isshinryu?

 

Andy Sloane It came from a lack of understanding of the technique and people parroting what they were taught as opposed to studying what Tatsuo Sensei actually did and taught.

 

John Kerker It doesn't look natural and feels uncomfortable....

 

Andy Sloane Absolutely, Sensei Kerker. It inhibits one's movement and provides ZERO balance/stability.

 

Nico Sermoneta It is uncomfortable but the toes I. Stance has its merits. For one, you will be able to twist your torso farther from side to side. Also having Your heals pointed out at close to 45 degrees gives you a lot of stability. Try having someone push you in this position compared to a similarly spaced parallel stance. I stand this way on the subway and that way I seldom feel the need to hold on for stability.

 

John Kerker It's not a natural way to stand....if your hips knees and feet are not in alignment then you cut off the transfer of power from your feet through your torso.

 

Andy Sloane John Kerker Hips, knees, and knees? I think you mean toes for the second knees?

 

John Kerker Yeah.....it's late here....I edited it

 

David Rayburn I was taught at least in front of the knee, edge of the foot parallel to the floor.

 

Raymond Dickey It's funny -- where did we get the narrower, toes-in stance?

 

Andy Sloane Kyan Chotoku taught to have the heels turned [slightly] out and toes turned [slightly] in from a shoulder-width apart stance. Tatsuo Sensei taught the same thing in his Naihanchi. The tension rests in the insides of the feet and inner thighs. Motobu Choki, however, taught to keep the feet straight.

 

Kevin Hirakis If the outside edges of the feet are parallel to each other, it will give the appearance of the toes "turned in". When I first started seeing the overly turned front feet, it was from someone who tried to trace all of the movements back to their kung fu roots and adapted the same lower stance as Wing Chun that uses that same foot placement.

 

Jeff Perkins Advincula Sensei teaches the Japanese figure 8 stance in Naifanchi but prefers Kiba. Angi Uezu also teaches the Japanese figure 8 stance. Tatsuo Sensei also did his Seisan Dachi different than he taught. One can’t just rely on photos then make a blanket claim.

 

Jeff Perkins As for the Japanese figure 8 Naifanchi stance (Uchi Hachiji dachi or Uchi Hachi dachi) , many in Isshinryu that I’ve seen do it incorrectly by raising their center of gravity. The stance teaches a form of groin protection in CQB.

 

John Kerker Mr Harrill always said what is Isshin Ryu is natural, and what is natural is Isshin Ryu. If you watched him work someone with techniques out of this kata.....he was always in Kiba Dachi....there we're also three distinct kicks and traps with the legs that he taught.

 

Jeff Perkins John...did he ever tell you what Tatsuo taught him? We all have our preferences. I was taught a thumb on top fist but prefer a thumb slightly down. I know Sensei Harrill preferred that fist & so do you .

 

John Kerker He said that Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei said a smaller man may tend to turn the toes in a tad bit, the bigger sized Americans need not do that.....

 

Jeff Perkins I’ll ask Tokumura Sensei this question about Naifanchi stance in Isshinryu when I talk with him. I believe he’s one of a very select very few who are left that have trained with Tatsuo Sensei & also spoke the language.

 

John Kerker We'll be interested in his answer

 

Jeff Perkins John Kerker me too. I do have video of his student on Okinawa when he was Isshinryu in Kichiros dojo. It’s a demo. I don’t remember Naifanchi. Not a real good demo kata.

 

Jeff Perkins John Kerker I’m toes in but pelvis down. Small gap in the legs. Allot because AJA would kick you full power from front & back. I stopped wearing groin cups in the dojo when I learned how to block .

Danny Smith Jeff Perkins I have seen video of this type of testing...doing that no cup is pretty ballsy...haha

 

Manage  Jeff Perkins Danny Smith I never wear a Cup in the dojo. Gotta learn to block .

 

Danny Smith Jeff Perkins I don’t either...but, never been tested in that manner. I’m sure one miss would be all it would take!

 

Jay W. Newby American Isshinryu kata are about 98% the same. Small differences really. Naihanchi narrow and pigeon toed I believe is incorrect and causes difficulty in movement. Some books do show narrow stance with inward toes. We do as we are taught. Just keep checking around, ask questions and research on your own.

 

Romney Taylor Guess I might as well give my opinion about the naihanchi stance. I was taught Uchi-hachi-ji-dachi , from Heiko dachi the toes
Turn inward.  Uchi-hachi-ji-dachi is to Sanchin-dachi  What
Heiko-dachi is to seisan-dachi.

The legs work the same in both sanchin and Uchi-hachi-ji-dachi, . When the feet are Rooted the pelvis controls the tension in the Legs, straightening the pelvis (normally the pelvis has a forward tilt) , this aligns both the spine, the internal organs , and the TCM meridians within the body.

In a relaxed stance , the pelvis normally tilts forward, The gut hangs out, this misaligns the internal organs and the meridians . pulling the pelvis up , realigns the torso. The internal organs then sit on top of each other in the bowl of the hips, rather than spilling out forward. This is a basic energy stance , as well as a good training stance for the legs, and alignment ,
just as sanchin is.

 

Romney Taylor As for kicking between the legs, IMO, if sanchin or Uchi-hachi-ji-dachi Is used the knees or lower part of the thigh is not what is used to ...

 

The question is , how do I tighten the muscles on the inside of the thigh ?
It can be difficult to learn to do , and most can’t if we ask them to do it.
If you have them stand in Heiko dachi , turn the toes in pull the pelvis up
(straighten the spine), these muscles will engage naturally.

One we learn to do this it is not necessary to lock into a pronated stance
to tighten these muscles, the body knows how to do it, the stance can
then loosen up or straighten a bit .

 

Romney Taylor IMO this is a very important stance in IR In the OIKA we were taught 4 stretches at the beginning  Of the lower body chart exercise.

The second stretch (deep breathing exercise) uses this Uchi-hachi-ji-dachi.

 

Victor Donald Smith I woud make a small point. When I learned the form, the version I was shown was with the toes inward. I just followed what my instructors showed me and worked at it forever.

Decades later i realized that Naifanchi dachi was another controversary. 

Where for decades I did not realize that was so. I have learned so many different stances from so many different systems, and in every case with proper effort, learned how to make them work.

 Never had any difficulty performing Naifanchi the way I was shown, or any difficulty showing it to my students, And I can find many unique uses it contains too.

Now I still run the form, abet much slower, and still it works. Whether the stance be toes straight, or weather the stance be toes in, i suggest we just whether the stance and keep moving on.