When many knowledgeable people chime in there are no simple answers:

  

John Hulsebos‎

An open question to any/all Okinawan karate practitioners:
I have a concern about Seisan Kata, which I do not see in Nagamine T. Soke or Nagamine Shoshin Osensei listing of 18 kata.

Is Seisan Kata still taught? Does anyone have the kata in written or photographed form (both if possible)?

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Victor Donald Smith As I understand it Seisan was never taught in Matsubayshi Ryu. Apparently Kyan never taught it go Nagamine becauxe he had prior karate training and perhaps Kyan felt it unnecesssary for him. That you trained in a dojo that taught the form, might be just because of the instructors preference. There are several different versions of Seisan in different systems, shorin, Goju and Uechi..the forms have a somewhat common core. Old style Shorin often taught it first, many of ghe other system taught it much later.

 

 

Dan Tosh Here is our version and Eizo Shimabukuro, confirmed it to be the same as his when I was last in Okinawa in 1991. I hope this helps.

Mike Jones John was your teacher. Nicholas Aj Cardone of CT Shorin Ryu? Who was his teacher?

 

Luis Fernandez https://youtu.be/ODNaOm9oW48

Shorin-Kai International:Shorin-Kai International:

 

Chris Ecclestone Goju Ryu Meitoku-Ha includes Seisan.

 

Steve Barnhart Isshinryu first Kata taught .. fighting 13 opponents

Bruno Ballardini Steve Barnhart yes. In all the schools belonging to Kyan’s lineage Seisan is the first kata taught. In modern karate the equivalent kata (i.e. Hangetsu) is taught at black belt level. Evolution or devolution?

Shima Tsuru Seisan kata came to Okinawa via exchange with China by visitors and travelers. Certainly Kyan, Sensei was trained and pass it on and many in the Tomari as in the Shuri linages had as part of the few forms taught and kept. Remember most of the fore-fathers of Karate in OKI had but 3,4 or 5 kata under their belts. The need for kata collecting and its historical value came later in the years. On the Naha-Te side it is undoubtedly Uechi, Sensei & Miyagi, Sensei, responsible for the kata been pass on.

Now remember, before all styles Tou Di or “Foreign hand” was the source. Meaning any and all kata that came from China and or was based on techniques that came from the Chinese influence, as that of the Kume Village, was considered Tou Di. Seisan is found in Chinese gung fu curriculums and in all Tomari/Shuri or Naha curriculums.

Why Nagamine, Sensei stoped at 18 kata and or why Mabuni, Sensei insisted in keeping as many if not all ever recorded kata, plus making some new versions and kata, it is not to my knowledge a recorded fact.

So we are left with guesses. My guess is that Nagamine, Hanshi took a different approach at things, he was a more modern instructor and he undeniably was interested in maintaining historical Karate, but certainly he broke with the unspoken rule of crediting one source all the way up. His innovation of curriculum basing and that of rounding support and different schools under just one Karate had him sitting as President of the Kodokan and earning several recognitions. He was not only a well established Sensei in his time but also an organizer of the Karate of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s. Just like Miyagi, Sensei was in the 30’s, 40’s.

The guess is that his Matsubayashi encompassed enough of the old and some of the new; crediting those whom impacted philosophical and emotional his life and training and the emulation of others which whom without Karate might not be standing. We must remember the era, the life he lived and the difficulties of the times. Nagamine, Sensei was a genius in the sense that he saw the future and established a curriculum not yet needed, but one that in time would have the structure to be taken far from the shores of Okinawa. He understood survival was in the globalization of Karate and Matsubayashi indeed traveled to the four corners of the world not long after his curriculum was established. The guess been that he put in a great flavor of Shorin Ryu to comply with that established system that had already in the 60’s traveled to Japan, Hawaii, South America and USA, then he packed the Tomari-Te in order to underline that of Kyan’s true teachings from the eras of names like Matsumora, Sensei and that great connection to truly amazing Chinese-liked influenced techniques.

His predecessors and contemporaries where either making kata-systems like Itosu with his 5 Pinan and Miyagi with 5 developed kata, Kanei Uechi also developed 5 to add on to his fathers learned 3 and so on; the collectors of styles, techniques and kata like Mabuni, Sensei and Funakoshi had left the archipelago. Hence, Nagamine, Sensei seems to have taken the historian side of collecting and working on 18 kata putting his grain of salt into the survival of Karate. For to do all the forms would be to copy Shito Ryu and to the the same as all others would be to do Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Wado Ryu or any other Japan established or intn’l system. His element of differentiation was enough Shorin with the Tomari knowledge to be in the loop, but still different and holding on to that history which he was taught.

Again, a guess in following what was going on in the times, but having met and read those who knew him and who new of his plans to promote Karate outside Okinawa, seems like a good guess.

Seisan was to much of a Naha-Te kata and 18 was already a high number in the construction of a curriculum.

At the end, although Seisan was out, it is important to note that Ananku and Wankan are unique in its use, training and historical conservation within Matsubayashi Ryu.

Thank you for reading on if you made it this far.

John Hulsebos Shima Tsuru thank you.. I was aware of much of the history but have always believed Seisan was in the kata...no one told me any different, and a lot of instruction was passed on without documents...

 

Reece Cummings Seisan is not a kata preserved in Matsubayashiryu by the Nagamine lineage.

Drew Ochsner As far as the lineages from Chotoku Kyan (Motonaga), Seisan is still practiced in the Shorin-Ryu Seibukan (aka: Sukunaihayashi-Ryu, Zenryo Shimabukuro lineage), Zentokukai (from Seibukan), Shorinji-Ryu (Joen Nakazato lineage), Shobayashi-Ryu (Eizo Shi…See More

 

Markus Hof Drew Ochsner I am happy to have learnt Kyan no Seisan in Shorin ryu Seibukan, and was surprised to find it again now in Shotokan under the name Hangetsu 😃. of the Seisan variants I have seen, this is closest to the Kyan version, and it is rumoured Funakoshi put this version on the curriculum to have a ‚breathing kata‘ like Sanchin. Can this be true?

 

Jose Guzman There are some, not many Shotokan schools that practice Sanchin Kata. Regarding Seisan Kata, there Gendai (modern Budo) Ryuhas (systems) that practice a version of Seisan.

 

Andreas Quast Why would Nagamine have included it? A group of other people who trained with Kyan in the 30a or 40s say Kyan taught Seisan and that it is from Matsumura. But this Seisan is just regular Shuri Seisan, as already seen by Funakoshi and others. It was probably part of what was taught to school kids at the time and not even specific to Kyan. Also, Kyan might have learned it from his father. Thing is, in postwar karate politics in Okinawa this is an imortant topic because it includes the claim that Nagamine was only taught partly by Kyan. This includes the topic of Ananku which is just a pieced together kata from Seisan, Gojushiho, Passai and some other bits. Because it is different from Matsu's Ananku, members of the same Okinawa group that claim Seisan claim Nagamine never learned Ananku from Kyan. It is all just part of a narrative of some self-important Okinawans that turned into a proxy war by western students. Best is to not draw any conclusions from anything they say really. They talked a lot and were full of themselves.

Robert Weinberg Andreas Quast Without drawing conclusions or casting dispersions on Nagamine Sensei (whom I met in Okinawan and admire
) it is a legitumate question. Considering that every major descendent from Kyan Chotoku teaching inckuding ling term students Zenryo Shimabuku and Tatsuo Shimabuku as well as Joen Nakazato, Shugoro Nakazato and my own Teacher Eizo Shimabuku all include seisan in their curricula it is curious that it is absent from Matsubayashi ryu.

Andreas Quast Robert Weinberg Tamotsu Isamu, the person who first used Shorinji-Ryu as a name (followed by Nakazato Joen and Shimabukuro, the latter later switched to Shorin), supported the Okinawsns and actually many (Nakamura, Shimabukuro) got their 10. Dan's first from the JKF and through Tamotsu. His wife remembered the following experience:
“In response to Isamu asking for instruction, Shimabukuro [Zenryō] said,

‘Teaching you is not a problem. But I myself only know two Kata: Ānankū and Chintō.’"

I believe this is a legitimate question.

Dave Lockhart Did Seisan under Shimabukuro Eizo Hanshi from '63, then in a very slightly different form under Kise Fusei Hanshi from '77. Still do it and still teach it.

Gary Ralph Music This is Seisan kata as I was taught. :-) there are many versions. enjoy

Jerry Figgiani I was told by Zenpo Shimabukuro Sensei, Master Nagamine just didn’t spend enough time with Chotoku Kyan.

 

Jerry Figgiani Though this is not part of our syllabus, I do practice this in my dojo sometimes. My students learned Seisan in Okinawa from Zenop Shimabukuro Sensei. .... https://youtu.be/UJ9FX9frt94

Andreas Quast Nagamine performed Chatan Yara no Kusanku in 1939. On the same stage Kyan Chotoku performed Chinto. How does that qualify as an evidence for transmission of technique. http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=7848

Nagamine Shoshin performed Chatan Yara no Kusanku in 1939Nagamine Shoshin performed Chatan Yara no Kusanku in 1939

 

Andreas Quast Oh, this is from a grade A Japanese source:
“When in May 1942 Nagamine Shōshin opened his first dōjō in Naha’s Sōgenji district, it was the only private karate school in Naha at the time. Kyan Chōtoku, his personal teacher, came all the way from Yomitan village, together with his assistant Arakaki Ansei. Chōtoku demonstrated his favorite kata Passai and Chintō as well as bōjutsu."

Kyan's assistant Arakaki Ansei was the brother of Arakaki Ankichi, Kyan's top student who died early though. As everyone knows, that Arakaki Ankichi taught Kusanku and others to Nagamine, as well as Shimabukuro Taro did, another student of Kyan.

Any half-baked assumptions as regards Nagamine's inheritance of Kyan's tokui is just plain foolish.

http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=4661

 

Kyan Chotoku, teacher of Nagamine Shoshin.Kyan Chotoku, teacher of Nagamine Shoshin.