Yet another old discussion from long ago. It still is interesting.
元手二 Motode Ni
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A5k4emukhA
合戦手 Kasshindi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIv7k-saC1w
Wondering if maybe we should move some of the more recent discussion to a more general udunti thread? Not strictly forms and applications anymore...
And by the way, still waiting on my sensei to post anything on youtube...
As for the kiko question, I haven't been taught anything resembling kiko as of yet...and I did a few workshops in qi gong with an acupuncturist here a few years ago, so have some experience with the Chinese version.
However, we do have teaching of tsubo for fighting applications and I know my Shihan is interested in breathing techniques. Our ti-no-moto exercises may also seem somewhat kiko-like, but again the ideas of energy creation and storage are not explicit. Why we do it has always been given a more mechanical explanation, so as to prepare the heart, lungs, and tendons...perhaps not so different in practice...
Also, I think "ti" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning something similar to "ki/qi", but the "ti" in udunti is the same as the "te" in karate. We don't use "ti" other than in compounds like udunti and ti-no-moto, etc.
There's a big misunderstanding from Uehara sensei's dvd that he is supposedly knocking his uke down without touching them, when in fact they are doing what they have been trained to do to avoid his weapon and get in position to attack again--nothing to do with "ki" power transmission whatsoever (you see that stuff on Japanese TV every once in a while).
Is the idea of a family of related "ti" systems primarily Mark Bishop's interpretation? I'm not sure that term is used in Japan that way (definitely not by my sensei, though he may be biased!)
Gesar--
No information for you on the history of sword arts in udunti. Still reading through a bunch of other stuff in Japanese. I know some people say it was developed from sword techniques, but we're always told the empty hand is primary. Weapons are whatever you find available and use them with the same basic movements as with the empty hand. Again, I doubt there will ever be a definitive answer as to what came first, other than tooth, nail, stick, rock. I'm only just starting to be introduced to sword training, however...
Di just as it is correct to say Dao for Tao in Chinese, showing a clear connection between the cultures of China and Okinawa through language.
In common parlance the terms Ti/Te/di are used inter changeably by most people in the west, in all probability on the basis of the writings of Mark Bishop. I think you are right that he did not intend for the term Ti to be muddled with Ki, but his own ti was Shiatsu related and so went the way that Mike Powell is talking about.
I am sure that even if a standardization of Motobu Udun di terms did take place that discussions will still carry on using these other terms when discussing Ti/Te/di more generally or whatever it is that people think they mean. Take the Wade Giles and Pin Yin systems for Romanizing the Chinese language, you will end up with slightly different phonetics with the same meanings across two systems.
Anyway, I posted some of the Bugeikan Ti/Te/di Demo's on Youtube recently for purposes of comparison and comment. I would be especially interested in any comments as to how these compare to Motobu Udun Di that people have learnt.
Di Kihon combined with some Karate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuhHlaqhHlU video unavaiable
Tuidi/grappling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KjIU3JIS8M video unavaiable
Tuidi 2 against 1 grappling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsZVLzCCgrA video unavaiable
Regards
Chris Norman
I'm thrilled to see these video's, thank you!
I notice a couple of differences from what I am being taught (at Seidokan, Okinawa).
1. The use of weight in these video's seems to be employed by leaning into the technique (bending at the waist). We are taught to step into the technique or to pivot 180 degrees to generate pushing type of force. We are not to generate any force from our upper body strength.
2. The other most noticeable difference is the footwork (which influences that mentioned above). We are vigorously corrected if we fail to use what they call "mai", stepping into the technique with the same side foot and hand. As we step, we are to protect our groin by twisting the hips and crossing the knee of the foot coming forward in front of the other knee to cover. We do this when we punch or when we throw a maegeri (the only kick that we use). We are to use a very light touch with the hands, not a firm grab. So, any torque generating action must come from our body's movements rather than our hand or arm movements.
3. Another related difference is the general attitude and posture while waiting for the attack. We are taught not to kamae - no hopping, no excitement, no holding the hands up in readiness. More like the calm walking that Uehara Sensei demonstrates in his video's that seems to baffle or be underestimated by so many who view them!
Rascal,
Thank you for your comments.
1. I agree that there does as you say seem to be a lot of leaning into the techniques with the upper body in these grappling scenarios, something that is clearly not present in all of the available footage of Uehara Sensei and his students.
2. I was of the impression that the footwork between Motobu Udun di and Bugeikan di was very different, whilst some of the Kihon seems to demonstrate lead leg and lead hand this does not seem to be present in the grappling aspects shown in these videos.
As regards the light touch aspect
In the book Shindoryu yumemaboroshi no jutsu which is about Seitoku Higa, which has sometimes been amusingly translated as 'The Incredible techniques of Shinto Ryu Jutsu of Seitoku Higa' the writer apparently talks about in the beginning about the “light” touch of Seitoku Higa when doing techniques. Higa said when coming in contact with the opponent attacking arm, you should not push, pull or grip the arm. Instead, you should “ride” (guide) the opponent’s movement. He seems to be implying that one should not give any energy (force/strength) to the opponent that he can use (yield to and reverse). Higa here seems to be talking about the very light touch, like what you are referring to here, but which is missing from this material I have posted.
3. There is clearly a very specific dynamic in terms of the Bugeikan material shown in these videos which differs greatly from what is available in terms of Motobu Udun di material. As you say the hands are held up, there is also the hopping type movement which seems to characterize a lot of the early Bugeikan material.
Given that Seitoku Higa has been mentioned in this thread a few times and that there are some clear differences between the di of the Bugeikan which comes from one source and Motobu Udun di of Seikichi Uehara,which Seitoku Higa also trained in, I have posted a couple of clips of Seitoku Higa doing some demonstrations.
What I would like to determine here is whether or not these clips of Seitoku Higa show a high level of performance of what can recognizably be called Motobu Udun di or something else.
The clips:
The first of these shows the use of empty hand against Naginata: NK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOukiIAnxSg video unavaiable
The second shows firstly the way the sword has been used in this school, including the footwork, this is followed by empty hand against sword and can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCL6-euwYVM video unavaiable
as regards this last clip, I would be specifically interested to know if the solo sword work done at the beginning is the same as in Motobu Ryu Udun di that people have experienced.
As regards the Mark Bishop and Te/Ti/Ki thing, in his second book Zen Kobudo: Mysteries of Okinawan Weaponry and Te (and Te is the spelling used throughout), he states on page 144 the following: a large part of the training nowadays is dance "to noursih the secret principles of Ki (intrinsic energy) which includes the Ki of heaven and earth in a martial context" He is of course speaking about the Bugeikan here and the development of what is called Seido there would seem to bear this out.
Regards
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