Kicking in the Isshinryu Wansu Kata

 This is a fine example of the sort of discussions we used to have on my Pleasant Isshinryu Yahoo Groups discussion group 23 years ago. It was a time when Isshinryu people discussed together. I really have not seen a similar discussion in a very long time.

Wansu Kata Kicks

 

From:    " isshim@mediaone.net 

Date:  Sat Sep 22, 2001 9:43 pm

Subject:  Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  

Approximately in the middle of Wansu Kata there is a section where you turn to your rear with a sweeping openhand side strike, followed by a knee strike and then a punch.

Charlie Murray made a real impression on me during our training together, describing how proficient the Okinawan's (and of course Master Shimabuku) were with their knee strikes.  He remarked they were vastly more powerful than what he saw over here from his training with Master Shimabuku and Shinsho in 1971.  As he put it he felt their knee strikes would demolish their opponent.

Where the basic execution of the knee strike was to lift the leg directly up with the strike, and the foot and toes flexed to point to the ground, what he saw in Okinawa, was they slightly pulled the foot back first, and then drove the knee forward into the strike. A much more focused action where the foot being drawn back is similar to the cocking motion of a gun before firing.  Of course this gets the entire abdominal region, quadriceps, ilia posis, and `hip' area much more involved in the strike, too.

As I train my students, under brown belt we practice the earlier method, and upon brown belt, reset the technique to the latter. 

There is another knee strike story in Wansu kata, too.

At the end of the kata, after you stack your hands, I was taught by Sensei Lewis to deliver a front kick with the front leg (in two directions).  I also clearly remember him telling us that he originally learnt it as a knee strike with the front leg followed up with a front kick with that same leg. But in early open style American karate tournaments, judges who didn't understand Isshinryu would decide the person `blew' a front kick, not understanding the knee strike/front kick combination. As a result of such instances, the kata was changed to the front leg front kick.

Where I've always practiced the ending of Wansu as I was shown, years later upon learning Goju Saifa Kata, I was shown that kata with the knee strike then front kick with the same leg combination. [For those who practice Goju Saifa, there are also those Goju groups which deliver just a front kick in that section of the kata, too.]    As I eventually practiced it and later taught Saifa as a kata between Isshinryu Seisan and Seiunchin, as my students were then practicing that leg combination, I've never felt compelled to consider changing my Wansu kata, to explore the earlier tradition Mr. Lewis described.

Now there are perfectly acceptable application for the stack hands front leg front kick combination. But the front leg knee strike then front leg front kick combination has interesting applications too.

One potential of raising the knee strike is to jam or block kicks.  Ueichi Ryu uses the raised knee block in their Seisan and Sanseiryu Kata.  One possibility is that from Shimabuku Tatsuo's friendship with Master Ueichi, this original combination may have been from that source. 

On the other hand. Goju's Saifa kata is also done with a similar combination (in some groups). I such a case a knee strike into an attacker will cause them to move back away from the knee, and that opens room for the following front kick, as one possible application, too.

I've heard reference from others in Isshinryu that they've heard of Wansu's ending kick(s) being done in this manner also.  

I think it may be interesting to discuss how we all address the knee strike(s) in Wansu.

Victor

From:  "Samuel D. WeisD @email.msn.com >

Date:  Sat Sep 22, 2001  10:03 pm

Subject:  Re: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  I learned the ending kicks in Wansu with the knee strike I/fake/block/what have you).

As far as modifying the movements in Wansu, my lineage asserts the difficulty is with the other pair of knee kicks, where people used to the high kicks of other systems don't understand that we are just doing knee kicks. These are then converted into face level front kicks.

As for the "straight lift" vs. "cocked back", I find they both have their points. Obviously, the straight lift is faster. Equally, the cocked back is a lot stronger. Like most such choices, my focus has always been trying to merge the power of the one with the speed of the other. A difficult task, but something to work for. I try teaching this way as students prove able to perform the technique.

I have always been a big fan of knee kicks, both the "traditional" type (straight to the groin plexus) and various non-standard (for Isshin Ryu anyway) types. My favorite, when I could still do it, was the "brace on the opponents bent knee and leap into a knee kick to the head".

Sam Weiss

  

From:  "Bob Barton"  bob-barton@mediaone.net >

Date:  Sun Sep 23, 2001  12:41 am

Subject:  Re: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  

We practice it as a knee strike for the first section you are talking about.

We learn at higher belts to do pull the foot slightly back before doing the strike.  We practice the technique by putting a piece of paper on the floor under the foot.  The idea is to slide/push the paper back with your foot and then drive your knee up.

I saw the kata performed at Sensei Holubecki's school and I think by Sherman Harrill where they treat that section as a pump or fake instead of a strike.

The rationale is that the pump draws their hands down to block, and then you tag them with the punch.

We also do the knee strike/block at the end.  We draw back into a cat stance, bring the knee up and rotate from inside to out (ostensibly to block a kick) and then throw a front kick of our own.

Later,

Bob (really like doing Wansu kata) Barton  

 

From:  "Samuel D. Weiss  samwise1@email.msn.com >

Date:  Sun Sep 23, 2001  9:52 am

Subject:  Re: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Speed versus Power  

Hi Victor,

One of the people I've trained with has always said "speed plus focus plus timing equals power". Being particularly weak myself, I've had to embrace this particular approach wholeheartedly. Thus I place a very heavy emphasis on being faster, combined of course with the other elements, including as you mention placement.

One thing I'd add on placement, I don't teach the "standard" knee to the nether regions. In my experience, most people are well aware of that and will simply shift out the way, often countering with a knee as they do.

Instead, I target the front of the thigh, right above the knee. If the person shifts to avoid this, it transfers to the side target you mention.

I am also willing to use the knee on the approach, though I learned the concept from a friend in Kyokushin. Really nasty stuff if you have the knees for it as you say.

Sam Weiss  

 

From:  "Reese Laundry  reese.laundry@airrouteinc.com >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  9:26 am

Subject:  RE: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  

Greetings All!  Hope it was a "pleasant" weekend for you.

I learned the knee strike in the same manner Bob did.  We were given the imagery of having a piece of paper under the foot and needing to sweep it out behind to cock the knee before striking.  This was taught from the start rather than waiting until a higher level of skill.

As for Wansu, I see a couple of things.  In the middle section, I learned it as a full knee strike, although he idea of a fake is interesting as well.

Bob, you commented on the knee strike looking too low in your tape.  

Keep in mind that as you turn to face those opponents, you block and grab, then pull him down and into the knee strike- it wouldn't have to be as high as if he were standing fully upright.  At the end, our interpretation is also blocking a kick with the shin, then kicking.  The knee comes straight up rather than being cocked back for a strike.

Nice to see a useful discussion for a change! :)

Reese Laundry  

 

From:    isshim@mediaone.net 

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  1:24 pm

Subject:  Side Kicks in Wansu Kata  Reese Laundry  reese.laundry@a... > wrote:

> about the side kicks in Wansu

- our textbook bunkai is kicking into the chest/ribs under the punch- I haven't used the knees.

That brings up another Wansu topic.

I was originally shown in Mr. Lewis' Dojo that to do the side kick, you begin with the same leg chamber as a front kick (raising the knee to the front) and then kicking out with the blade of the kicking foot into the knee area.  That is still as I teach it today.

But Charlie Murray always threw his side kicks almost head high from the same chamber, and still does today. Not what I'd call a classic  Isshinryu answer, but impressive if you've seen it.

On the othe hand, when I review the film record of Shimabuku Sensei (Wansu, SunNuSu) from 1966 and from the 1958 versions, I'm not sure he was throwing the same blade parallel to the floor sidekicks.

In fact, it kind of looks like he's throwing an angled towards horizontal side of the blade kick (as if striking into the groin area).

I've always felt the inclusion of the side kick in Isshinryu kata may have been a tribute to the Goju training he received. In several of their kata, they use a real driving low side kick and as I believe they are turning to the rear at the same time, it becomes sort of a rear stomping side kick.

So perhaps we've moved on to Side Kicks in Isshinryu.

On a different topic, most Okinwan kata just use a front kick. I have a Shorin friend (Shimabuku Ezio lineage) who has trained with various Shito ryu groups.  At one training session, a very senior Okinawan instructor maintained in his 50+ years of karate, he has only seen One Okinawan Kick (implying it was the front kick). 

Thought I'd throw that in for thought, too.

Victor

  

 

From:  Michael Pokriefka Michael.Pokriefka@JDA.COM >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  3:55 pm

Subject:  Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  Hi All,

I really liked Victor-san's idea of a pleasant list. To help focus on what we can share in Isshin-ryu I'll post something. 

I apologize. I'd really prefer that those more eloquent and knowledgeable do the posting. 

I think I have a vague understanding of the variations of the knee strike that Victor-san described:

(i) <<... the basic execution of the knee strike was to lift the leg directly up with the strike, ...the foot and toes flexed to point to the ground ...>> 

(ii) <<... what he saw in Okinawa, was they slightly pulled the foot back first, and then drove the knee forward into the strike.>>

I'm guessing I might fall somewhere in between these two, so I think I also understand Sam-san

when he writes:

<< Like most such choices, my focus has always been trying to merge the power of the one with the speed of the other. A difficult task, but something to work for.>>

Bob-san's remarks were interesting:

<<We learn at higher belts to do pull the foot slightly back before doing the strike.  We practice the technique by putting a piece of paper on the floor under the foot.>> 

but I was unable to do this on wet pavement in tennis shoes: 

<<The idea is to slide/push the paper back with your foot and then drive your knee up.>>

8 - )

My lineage is Tatsuo Shimabuku --> Sherman Harrill --> Lee Norton so my ears perked up when Bob-san wrote:

<< I saw the kata performed at Sensei Holubecki's school and I think by Sherman Harrill where they treat that section as a pump or fake instead of a strike. The rationale is that the pump draws their hands down to block, and then you tag them with the punch.>>

I can't speak for Sensei Holubecki, but both my Sensei and Sensei Harrill do show a fake as one possible bunkai for these knee strikes. I do not understand this as a "fake instead of a strike" nor do I understand this as a "pump" if that means something other than a focused knee strike. The idea is that you throw a knee strike, a real honest-to-goodness knee strike not an imitation. (Is that a real knee strike, or a Sears knee strike?) If the bad person drops their hands to block the knee (probably gonna take both hands), they leave themselves open for the punch, otherwise they get the knee. 

Now I promise to shut up and go back to lurking if we can play nice. Don't make me post again.

Regards,

Michael 

From:  "Reese Laundry   reese.laundry@airrouteinc.com >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  3:07 pm

Subject:  RE: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Side Kicks in Wansu Kata  

Hi Victor:

Thank you for instigating these discussions.  They are a welcome change of pace.

>I was originally shown in Mr. Lewis' Dojo that to do the side kick, >you begin with the same leg chamber as a front kick (raising the knee >to the front) and then kicking out with the blade of the kicking foot >into the knee area.  That is still as I teach it today.

>

>But Charlie Murray always threw his side kicks almost head high from >the same chamber, and still does today. Not what I'd call a classic >Isshinryu answer, but impressive if you've seen it.

As I sit here in my office, I'm pondering how exactly I DO the Wansu sidekicks and B) If I am still doing what I was taught or not.  To be honest I don't know if I've drifted or not at this point. Probably.

I do the kicks from a musubi-dachi stance (heels together, feet @ 45 deg.) Knee comes up in front but somewhat across the body as I rotate my hips and lean away from the target. The diff. from my "standard" side kick is that I don't point the heel of my support leg at the target.  

If anything, the force of the quick snap kick pulls the heel around somewhat, but that's it.

The kick is essentially horizontal or a bit higher, with the target being the ribs (as I already mentioned).

How does this compare to what you describe Lewis & Murray Sensei doing?  Am I correct in assuming that they are rotating somewhat on the support heel?

A typical sparring fake is bringing the knee up as if to front kick, causing your opponent to lower his guard, then rotating the hips (and heel) to fire a roundhouse high instead. From the same hip position, you can snap a side kick out to the side (as in Wansu).  Can you describe your chamber and kick in more detail?

Without moving the heel, I don't see how you could kick that high directly to the side.  Sounds tough on the knees to me.

Thanks again for the stimulation!

Reese (Dropping the last name soon on these lists - how many Reeses can there be?) Laundry

From:    isshim@mediaone.net 

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  5:13 pm

Subject:  Re: Side Kicks in Wansu Kata  Hi Reese,

How many Reese's can there be, well Reese Rigby, one of my seniors and in Angi's American organization, for one. But Reese R.  doesn't cruise the nets as far as I can tell.

You're side kick sounds a little more like Mr. Murray's version. I suspect there is a very wide range of practice being done here.

On our sidekicks we don't rotate the standing foot, and by flexing that knee, focus the blade of the kicking foot 90 degrees from center to the side approximately knee high, or a little higher kicking down through the knee.

But I've also been playing with the vertical (toes up) kick to the side. Perhaps it's a function of age (I'm reaching less flexibility than in the past), and it seems functional a vertical side kick to the groin, or into the hip joint, or the lower abdomen.

Of course, the goal is to make whatever version we're doing work.

On a different note, I was taught Wansu two different ways. If you look at the Uzeui clip, about 1/2 way when the feet are together, he steps out to the right with the left right punch.  Several years after that Mr. Lewis at a Black Belt kata review meeting changed that section to step out with the left foot and a right left punch. 

In the second version, you don't take an adjustment step before the left side kick.

I suspect the source of it was a magazine article on Wansu by Angi long ago, where I believe he did it that way.  Later I heard he changed it back (regardless of the reason).

For all practical sense, you're covering the same techniques whether you start to the right or the left, but after several decades I find starting to the left makes a cleaner kata, without the adjustment step of the right before the side kick.

And I guess I'll stay that way unless Sensei comes out of karate retirement and tells me to change again <GRIN>.

Victor

  

From:  "Ivan Leichtling  ivanlei@microsoft.com >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  6:04 pm

Subject:  RE: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Re: Side Kicks in Wansu Kata  Mr. Smith,

I have tapes of Mr. Uezu from 1986 in which he performs wansu step to the left, punch punch.  His current Panther Production tapes have him stepping to the right, punch punch.  The brief times I worked out with him (90-94) he stepped out to the right.

You favor stepping left first because it requires no step to the right before the side kick.  I have always considered the step away from the side you are kicking to be quite important.  Whichever side I started the punching sequences with I would still step to the side before kicking.  The reason, as I have taught and have experimented with, is that as an opponent approaches from the side, I let them get within range, draw back for some room, and then nail them with the kick.  If I don't step to the side, I have to begin my kick as the opponent is farther away and I've found that leads to the opponent getting out of the way often before my kick hits target.  If I draw back the opponent is closer in to my body and doesn't react to my kick as quickly.  Any ideas on this theory?

Ivan (Bemused to see Bob Barton has created an international phenomenonwith these quirky little things) Leichtling

Seattle  

 

From:  "Ivan Leichtling    ivanlei@microsoft.com >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  5:47 pm

Subject:  RE: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Knee Strikes and Wansu Kata  Hello Pleasant Isshinryu,

Had a good weekend of karate with a seminar by Sensei Harrill this Saturday.  I'll probably still be considering the things he told me this weekend when I see him next.

Regarding the final blocks/kicks in wansu kata, I've enjoyed what I read and would like to express two variants which I have seen.

1. From Tom McDonach of BC Canada, a student of Mr. Advincula.  Mr.McDonach demonstrated a block with the outside of the shin/thigh.  He stresses lifting the leg into 'knee strike posture' or 'chamber' position BEFORE turning around.  Thus, as he turns, he leads with his shin and thigh.  His opponent's kick is blocked by the outside of his leg and then he snaps out his front kick at the opponent.

2. From my own study group, here in Seattle, with concepts learned from Mr. Harrill.  Sensei Harrill has shown me that my cat stance was too 'open'.  In a cat stance, right foot forward, the right knee needed to be 'leaning' to the left to keep the groin 'closed'.  As we turn around and draw into cat stance at the end of wansu, we draw back into a 'very closed' cat stance.  The opponent's kick is deflected on the outside of our front leg and then we fire off a kick straight at our opponent.

For me, an important point of either of these methods is that the groin is very covered, and the opponents kick is not taken straight on, but is taken by a deflecting or glancing method.

Thanks,

Ivan Leichtling

Seattle, WA

  

 

From:    isshim@mediaone.net 

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  8:13 pm \

Subject:  Just a Thought Wansu Again  Isn't it interesting what 'pleasant' conversation will show.

I believe we've discussed more on Wansu today than I've seen in total for years in Isshinryu discussion.

I was chatting on-line with Mr. Harrill earlier today and he wondered whether it was possible for polite Isshinryu discussion.  Thanks for accepting our basic premise.

Other thought's on Wansu.

In my opinion it is the most heavily modified Kata of Shimabuku Sensei.  It represents something similar to the Kyan Wansu with an additional 1/2 tacked onto it.  I believe the new kicking techniques were his core answer.

On the other hand, the 'kame' with vertical knife hands immediately after the sidekicks presents some real advantages, too.

For quite some time I was more intrigued that if attacked, stepping backwards and raising one's hands provided a natural barrier of defense and a staging area for counterattack.

But recently I began to realize the potential of this movement as an interior line of defense, striking across the biceps (or using the hands to allow the opponent's biceps to strike into the hands) was a superior counterattack too.  All that is really needed is work with the correct knees release to set oneself appropriately into an attack.

In this it parallels a use of the stepping outer crescent knife hand strike, etc. to strike on the interior into the biceps, too.

But even more important, consider how by not bickering and looking at each other's variations we learn more about what the potential of the kata represents.

My original instructor taught various versions of the kata, most often minor changes.  Revisiting these Wansu variations makes his approach as sensible.  For if training the individual beginner, it does make sense to shape an appropriate Wansu for their capabilities. 

Then once they develop advanced skill, the other variation possibilities can also be considered.

Just a thought,

Victor

From:  "Samuel D. Weiss  samwise1@email.msn.com >

Date:  Mon Sep 24, 2001  9:21 pm

Subject:  Re: [Pleasant_Isshinryu] Just a Thought Wansu Again  

>But recently I began to realize the potential of this movement as an interior line of defense, striking across the biceps (or using the hands to allow the opponent's biceps to strike into the hands) was a superior counterattack too.  All that is really needed is work with the correct knees release to set oneself appropriately into an attack.<

I learned this as an arm break (slap the hand down then lift under the elbow) that can be adapted to a neck break very easily (circle the neck top and bottom then grab and reverse your hands quickly).

Using the related motions from Kusanku, I now teach a double knife hand strike similar to what I think you are describing, the first being a "drawing in" motion across the forearm, the second being a "slicing across" motion across the bicep. You need to be fast and coordinated to use it, but my students really hate when I demonstrate that, so I think it works.

Sam Weiss